billvon 2,400 #26 June 20, 2011 >Did the Argus kill her or fail to save her ? That's the $64,000 question with the Argus. If it doesn't fire, it fails to save the jumper. If it fires but traps the loop, it may kill the jumper; even if they pulled her reserve at that point, the Argus would prevent the reserve from deploying, thus killing them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #27 June 20, 2011 Bill, I'm used to read better comments from you. In the polish incident, the girl in question didn't pull her ripcords, not questions about that, she killed herself. Furthermore, the rest has been debated ad nauseum, we strongly disagree.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #28 June 20, 2011 Quote In the polish incident, the girl in question didn't pull her ripcords, not questions about that, she killed herself. This is getting ridiculous. What would be the point of an AAD if not to activate the reserve when you failed to deploy a parachute? YES, had she pulled herself she might have been saved. However, had she done so @ the exact moment the AAD fired (it did fire, did it not?) the apparently faulty cutter might have trapped the deployment bag - as it obviously also did when she didn't pull herself. The rest is playing with semantics. For the Argus AAD did not save her either. In fact, even before the Polish incident happened (that even in the most 'Aviacom friendly scenario' definitely leaves open the possibility of a freebag (temporally) locked in place by a faulty cutter) I pointed out exactly THAT possibility in a post I wrote october 5 2006 - replying to none other than YOU in a thread that discussed the quality of the Argus cutters... If I'm allowed to quote myself: Quote "OR: you are jumping a system with the cutter underneath the pilot chute but above the freebag, you pull your reserve near "the basement" and as your pilot chute is launched but before the reserve bridle is pulling your cutter is prompted by an electrical current. There's no more tension on the loop since your pilot chute just left and your cutter clamps itself on the loop, right above the grommet on top of your freebag. Congratulations - you just turned a cutter into a temporary locking pin..." Now since that post of mine in october 2006 a lot has happened. But what did not happen is the good people from Aviacom SA convincing us that the above mentioned cannot happen. I'm usually vain enough to enjoy being right with my predictions. In this case however, I had rather been wrong... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #29 June 20, 2011 would have, could have, should have... Fact remained she didn't pull, the AAD did not interfere with her ability to pull, the rest is up to debate. She killed herself.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #30 June 20, 2011 QuoteIf it fires but traps the loop, it may kill the jumper; even if they pulled her reserve at that point, the Argus would prevent the reserve from deploying, thus killing them. Bill, can you point me to an incident where an Argus (or any AAD for that matter) fired and only cut the loop on the top side of the cutter? All of the incidents that I'm aware of have had the loop cut on the bottom side of the cutter, meaning that if the jumper had pulled their reserve handle, the PC would deploy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #31 June 20, 2011 Quotewould have, could have, should have... Where 'could have' is - given the nature of the all to well known 'Murphy's law' - the most interesting. When all possible outcomes total 1 (or 100% if you like) Impossible outcomes are left with 0. What cannot happen does not happen... Quotethe AAD did not interfere with her ability to pull It never does so that is a moot point... QuoteShe killed herself. If I'm allowed some semantics too: When we say 'she killed herself' we usually refer to an ACTION by the part of the individual. There are by now thousand plus reports of skydivers being stopped by an AAD that themselves did not do anything and would also have 'killed themselves' through their INACTIVITY where it not for the AAD working as designed. Now had she climbed out of her harness in air or switch off the AAD AND lock the reserve prior to jumping/cutting away I would have agreed with the statement that 'she killed herself'. Since that was not the case it may well be that all she was 'guilty' of was a fatal misinterpretation of what she should have learned in her FJC. I have met a whole lot of student-skydivers that were guilty of exactly the same, misinterpreting parts of their FJC. Though their take on things may not always be completely realistic, they usually count on their instructors to keep them out of harms way. That is what AAD's are for in the first place and most skydiving centres all over the world point out the existence of this fail-safe mechanism during the first contact they have with their customers. Only DURING a (good) FJC they are confronted with the limitations but when selling the product to prospective buyers EVERYBODY mentions the AAD's on the reserves. That is why we want them to work flawlessly where that is at all possible. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
