Little Person wants to skydive.

[dsbbreck 0]

I'm an instructor who has a customer that wants to learn to skydive. She's done a tandem and wants to do AFF. The challenges are that she is a Little Person.

The biggest challenge would be finding equipment that would work for her to do AFF in. Her short arms I believe would be the biggest hurdle. Being able to reach the toggles and being able to effectively steer and flare the canopy.

If anyone has run across a similar situation, or has any constructive input on how we can help this young lady fullfill a dream, please post or better yet, PM or email me directly.

Thanks,

David

"Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question."

[labrys 0]

Have you considered sending this by email to the folks on the USPA board or maybe also the AFF I/Es listed there?

Good luck. I really hope she gets her chance.

Owned by Remi #?

[The_Don 0]

I asked about this back in 2005!

The only way I see it is you need to get with the right people to make a VERY special rig.

Cost would be ? ??

Don't give up!

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[jumpsalot-2 2]

I think a design company like PD could use a computer to create ( re-size ) a new ( existing ) pattern of a container and appropriate canopy sized to half. Risers, lines, canopy, reserve, pilot chute and container. It would cost a little more, but could solve the problem. If they can make a large system, they can make a small system, that works as a small system. Ask, as a challenge to be creative.

Life is short ... jump often.

[davelepka 4]

One problem might be the relationship between the container size and her body size. Even as a little person, she would still need a sizeable canopy for 'safe' student use. By sizeable I mean 190 or 170, which would result in a 'big' container. The lenght would be probaly be past her torso and extend toward her legs. Even if you could make a 'short and wide' rig, then you have the problem of it overhanging on the sides (not as big a problem as too long).

Steering and flaring would be a problem, and I think the only solution is to find a canopy big enough for her to land with a half braked approach. Then adjust the steering lines for half-brakes at the full flight postion, so even with the shorter flare stroke, she can get to a 'full' flare.

You could go with short risers, but then you run into the problem of the cutaway cables, hard housings (if present) and toggle keepers all being in the same spot. It might be easier to develop a longer toggle, like the tandem toggles with the passenger handles. You would need to find a way to secure the lower portion to the bottom area of the riser, so she could reach them. Of course, a dropped toggle might not be recoverable, so that's a consideration.

A spring loaded PC on the main would solve any issues with reaching the BOC, having strength/leverage upon reaching the BOC, and being able to get the PC clear of the burble for release.

One area of concern would be the cutaway and reserve handles. Does she have the reach to pull them with one motion, or would the shorter reach require a 'sweep' of the cables.

Also, regarding AFF, I'm not sure of her exact height or weight, but is she going to be able to present a fall rate a regular sized AFF I cannot match? What if she can fall at 80 mph in a flat spin?

Any thoughts about static line progression? It would solve the main deployment problem, and AFF I related problem all at once. If she can build some canopy time, and general confidence in the air, that's a step toward AFF. Some time in a tunnel would also be a good idea before taking her into freefall. It would give her a head start on the learning, and give you a good idea of the fall rate you'll be dealing with. Between some good tunnel time and a handful of static line jumps, a bunch of the 'what if's' are removed from the idea of AFF

[jumpsalot-2 2]

My only thought on canopy size was to keep a proper wing loading, I would think a minimum of .75/1 . Anything less would get blown around or maybe stall/ collapse. So let's say she weighs 50#, plus 20# rig is 70#. At .75/1 that would be a 94 sq. ft. canopy. It's likely she only weighs 50#. This is why I thought of half sizing everything, then it all works as a unit like it should.

Life is short ... jump often.

[davelepka 4]

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So let's say she weighs 50#, plus 20# rig is 70#. At .75/1 that would be a 94 sq. ft. canopy. It's likely she only weighs 50#. This is why I thought of half sizing everything, then it all works as a unit like it should.

It doesn't work that way. You can't put a student under a 94 sq ft canopy. The line length would increase the response to input, and the canopy would be anything but doclie.

Beyond that, you can't half size everything. Hardware components and webbing dimensions are not 'negotiable', and the Cypres is still a Cypres, where does that go? Even a 94 sq ft canopy requires a standard sized PC, where do you fit a full sized BOC pouch on a half sized BOC? You can make some things smaller, but when you try to fit all of the other things that remain full size in the smaller package, it's a no-go.

[jumpsalot-2 2]

As far as the PC, I liked your original idea of a ripcord and spring loaded PC. It makes alot of sense.

Life is short ... jump often.

[mchamp 1]

Are we talking about a little person being 4'7 or sth more like 3'6?

Also approximate weight?

Perhaps see how fast she can fall in a wind tunnel which would also further prepare her for stability

For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out
http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp

[dragon2 0]

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My only thought on canopy size was to keep a proper wing loading, I would think a minimum of .75/1 . Anything less would get blown around or maybe stall/ collapse.

Suuure... I did about 40 jumps loaded @ .45/1, not a single collapse. Not a single closed endcell, even. Of course all the accuray and BASE canopies tend to see an awful lot of collapses

Anything less than a 170sqft is stupid for even the lightest of students. A 94sqft? Not even going there

Best keep your mouth firmly shut if you do not have a clue about what you're saying

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 0]

Did you have a look around in the Skydivers with Disabilities forum yet? Even if there are no little people there (no clue of there are), there is lots of information there about modifying gear.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[jumpsalot-2 2]

Thanks Dragon 2 for your input, I was just brainstorming. I'm not an aeronautical engineer like you. That's why I suggested REAL designers like PD. BASE canopies are properly loaded around .75/1. I've never seen one just collapse like you have, as you say. Wow you jumped at .45, at your weight of 188 lbs, that - 417 sg. ft. canopy must have been fun. What is the reason to jump such a Monster solo ? And 40 times.

Life is short ... jump often.

[Fast 0]

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So let's say she weighs 50#, plus 20# rig is 70#. At .75/1 that would be a 94 sq. ft. canopy. It's likely she only weighs 50#. This is why I thought of half sizing everything, then it all works as a unit like it should.

It doesn't work that way. You can't put a student under a 94 sq ft canopy. The line length would increase the response to input, and the canopy would be anything but doclie.

Beyond that, you can't half size everything. Hardware components and webbing dimensions are not 'negotiable', and the Cypres is still a Cypres, where does that go? Even a 94 sq ft canopy requires a standard sized PC, where do you fit a full sized BOC pouch on a half sized BOC? You can make some things smaller, but when you try to fit all of the other things that remain full size in the smaller package, it's a no-go.

I don't know enough about the person we are talking about specifically here, but just wanted to throw in that, (and im sure 94 is too small) but keep in mind depending how much smaller she actually is, using a full size canopy that requires full sized strokes may be problematic. The increased response of the smaller canopy may actually be a good thing.

Not saying anything for sure, just that this is a really tricky situation. I mean, you have to consider what her overall "arm throw" is. I mean, if I (and the average person) have say a 4 foot swing from arms up to arms all the way down, and she has a 2ft swing, that's going to require a drastically different setup to provide something that behaves like we expect it to.

Just something to keep in mind.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Dutton 0]

She will need a custom rig. Be real careful with the reserve ripcord, if she had short arms, she may not be able to pull it far enough to clear the pin. I would think that a PD reserve demo canopy would make a fine main for her. Maybe a 176 or so, depending on her exit weight.
I would ask her if she is serious enough to spring for all new, custom gear for something she may not decide to pursue. If she doesn't stick with it, who is she going to sell this stuff to?
You also have to consider fall rate and training method. She is going to fall real slow. Can you keep up with her? Would she be okay with static line progression?
My home DZ has always good about accomodating anyone who wants to learn. We have trained the blind to jump, so as far as I'm concerned, she should be able to jump if she wants it bad enough...

Good for her.

[jumpsalot-2 2]

If everyone on earth was 12 ft tall and weighed 400 #. We would still be skydivers. We never would have made such tiny rigs, they just wouldn't work for us. We would still use a general wingloading of 1.1/1 or more. There would still be swoopers and accuracy jumpers, we'd just be 12 ft tall. No problem.....If we were all 4 ft. tall and weighed 50 #, we'd STILL be skydivers, and we would never build such a large rig. There would still be swoopers and accuracy jumpers with a general wingloading of 1.1/1 or more. It's just a matter of building this young lady a rig, that works for her.....and other little people........I'm waiting for the first little person two way dock. Who knows where it will go from there.

Life is short ... jump often.

[virgin-burner 1]

direct them to this, this and this thread..

i'm SOOO going to hell for that one..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[jtnesbitt 0]

What you are suggesting isn't designing or building, but rather engineering. That is the problem. The current technology that has been developed over decades upon decades wont work when scaled down to the size someone has suggested. That means the wheel must be reinvented.

That is IF the person in question is as small as was suggested, but they might not be as there is a "large" range of small people.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[jumpsalot-2 2]

You're right of course. A small canopy could NEVER fly with short line....what was I thinking......Oh wait , Luigi flew his 37 with short lines. youtube.com....Luigi's new 37 ft. record......No, not for students, but can it be done ? Stop thinking like a 6 footer.

Life is short ... jump often.

[jtnesbitt 0]

Why cant you give me the same respect i gave you and answer me without being a smartass?

The canopy and lines isnt the main issue. As someone else already pointed out EVEYTHING needs to be redesigned and everything doesnt necessarily scale down equally. However, since you ignored it when someone else already said it:

Small Canopy + Short line Set = not docile = Broken Student

Canopy, lines, PC, bridle, reserve (and all it entails), container, harness, risers, cutaway cables, reserve ripcord, etc

The issue is getting a manufacturer to engineer, design, and test all that. The harness and container system would be the biggest issue i think. Who is gonna test it? How much R&D do you think goes into our gear? Lets say they do engineer, design, and build something custom for this person. That already entails a LOT. How many prototypes and tests do you think is responsible before selling it to someone?

I am finished with this discussion though. You have more jumps than me but dont seem to have an accurate grasp on our gear, how it works, and how it is developed. Because of this it's not really a fair and valid discussion. Looking back I now understand Dragon2's line of thought.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[jumpsalot-2 2]

The first thing I said on this thread is to try to get an engineering ( that includes a design company, they use engineers ) company to look into this. What I got was some, but not all, " it can't be done ". Sure it will need to be tested, sure it'll have to be engineered. But now that us 6 footers ( yes I am one too ) have our rigs we think, why should we keep going on to engineer for Little People. Anything can be engineered. That's what engineers do, they wait for people to give them the challenge. What if this Little Person is a millionaire, and money is no object, and she just wants to live life to the fullest. Please, someone fro Performance Design or other aeronotical engineers give us your opinion.

Life is short ... jump often.

[virgin-burner 1]

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The first thing I said on this thread is to try to get an engineering ( that includes a design company, they use engineers ) company to look into this. What I got was some, but not all, " it can't be done ". Sure it will need to be tested, sure it'll have to be engineered. But now that us 6 footers ( yes I am one too ) have our rigs we think, why should we keep going on to engineer for Little People. Anything can be engineered. That's what engineers do, they wait for people to give them the challenge. What if this Little Person is a millionaire, and money is no object, and she just wants to live life to the fullest. Please, someone fro Performance Design or other aeronotical engineers give us your opinion.

maybe the market is just too small!?



yes-yes, pun intended, and yes-yes, i will end up in hell!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[jrmrangers 0]

how small is this person? i happen to know of a young lady thats really small thats going through herr aff with some gear her dz worked up for her. If you want pm me and ill give you her screen name, maybe she can give you some insight. i dont want to post it in the forums in case she wouldnt appreciate it.

Wait , I pull what first?

[DocPop 1]

Quote

direct them to this, this and this thread..

i'm SOOO going to hell for that one..

I am so pleased someone brought a note of sanity to all this "Little Person" bullshit. That phrase is so patronizing.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

Quote

direct them to this, this and this thread..

i'm SOOO going to hell for that one..

I am so pleased someone brought a note of sanity to all this "Little Person" bullshit. That phrase is so patronizing.

they say not everyone is "cut" for skydiving, you know!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[davelepka 4]

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You're right of course. A small canopy could NEVER fly with short line....what was I thinking......Oh wait , Luigi flew his 37 with short lines. youtube.com....Luigi's new 37 ft. record......No, not for students, but can it be done ?

Luigi is one of the best canopy pilots in the world. Beyond that, many people jump canopies with short lines every day, namely most high performance canopy pilots.

However, this thread is about a student, and that type of canopy is not appropriate for a student.

Beyond that, you keep insisting that PD can design a rig for this person, which is rediculous. First off, PD builds canopies, not rigs. Beyond that, if you were to use 'miniature' components, they would have to be tested and certified before anyone could jump them, let alone a student.

The fact is that full size hardware and webbing is not going to be compatible with a half sized rig. Biulding a rig from stratch that is proportionally smaller is not an option. The bets we can hope for is modifying a smaller, standard rig to accomodate the jumper.