enough about who is responsible

[tonyhathaway 0]

Sorry if this is in the wrong place. This is not a debate on training, restrictions, or education.

It is getting more dangerous. Not skydiving, but the jumpers attitude about "who" is responsible. I bet most here think McDonals getting sued for making people fat is bad.
Skydving is going down the same road. All of the talk about would you sue a gear manufacturer, someone selling a canopy to make sure the one buying is qualified to buy it.
Do you really think that EVERYONE selling a canopy is qualified to know if the one buying it is ready to fly it. Am I? With my number of jumps I should be, right? Who is to say that I am? Will there be a vote? What about the ones with less jumps. Are they suddenly NOT qualified? Why not? What about if they want it over the internet? Are you going to start
trying to sue dropzone.com for helping put one in contact with another? Sounds nuts right? This is how lawyers think. Everyone involved.
Why don't you look at who is pulling the toggles? I bet my life savings that a manufacturer, or gear dealer has never touched the controls on the parachute at the time someone else hooked in. It is unfortunate that these thing happen. It is very ease to try to blame the ones making money and that are still in business. Someone buying a canopy from someone then dies under it, thats not good. You start throwing around words like negligent, blame, responsibility, etc. about the living or unhurt, that is only going to make it harder for us to keep doing what we do. Lets start looking at the real offenders. The dead, the hurt, and the ones YOU think are going to be. If they get something you think they shouldn't talk to them about taking it back. None of the gear stores want to be associated with selling something they KNOW is too small for someone. I'm sure it's not done on purpose.
No one wants to trample on their grave. I don't either. I know enough to know that that is
whats needed to be done. Believe me, I've talked to plenty of people about what kinds of canopies I use, why and what I think would work for them. Some listen, some don't. Help the jumpers with the wrong parachutes. If you think someone is selling the wrong parachutes, call them on it.-don't buy from them, and tell your friends to not buy from them. Call them up and ask why. Don't sue them because you had a friend that would only listen the the ONE person who would sell him something he shouldn't use and no one else and he then got hurt. I'm rambling now, so I'll stop. -Tony

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[kelel01 1]

From what I can tell from the threads I've read/particpated in, no one's talking about suing. They're talking about MORAL RESPONSIBILITY, not legal.

And this:

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Help the jumpers with the wrong parachutes.

obviously is not working, which is why the debate(s) started in the first place.

Kelly

[josheezammit 0]

i think we should remember those great little words the we all learned in AFF..........we are all responsible for our own skydives....no one else, we get to the door and throw ouselves out, lawsuits like what you are talking about are just scams.

Ahh, what a wonderful world.

[tonyhathaway 0]

I'm not talking about just sueing. And yes, I get the moral side of it. Morally, don't you have an oblibation to take the keys away from a drunk no matter what? Isn't that legally stealing, but morally acceptable? Why do people who know better than the sellers, let the jumpers on the plane? Why do they continue to jump? There are ways to stop them. We are all involved. People are too fast to place blame ONLY on the one who profits. -Tony

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[kelel01 1]

But I also think plenty of people are blaming the DZO and the S&TA as well, as well they should. If people could just go out and jump whatever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want, we wouldn't have AFF programs and licenses. Certain people have the power to stop people from jumping, and when they don't exercise that power, things go wrong. That is unacceptable.

Kelly

[FallingAngel 0]

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From what I can tell from the threads I've read/particpated in, no one's talking about suing. They're talking about MORAL RESPONSIBILITY, not legal.

And this:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
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Help the jumpers with the wrong parachutes.

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obviously is not working, which is why the debate(s) started in the first place.

About moral responsibility...I think that there is only so much a person can do sometimes. Say I want to sell my Stiletto 107 to someone. I ask them how many jumps they have, what they're flying now, etc...People can always lie to you to get what they want. You can limit this by only selling your gear to people you know, or not selling it at all.

In the end, we're all adults here. It's a shame when people hurt themselves, but IMO, a majority of skydiving accidents could be prevented and are a result of people's stupidity. If you can't fly a canopy and buy it anyway, against other people's advice...who's to blame? I think the person who bought the canopy. And as long as someone is not a danger to others, who's to say that the DZ can't let someone jump out of the plane with 300 jumps and a 2/1 WL (though I can see how this person could be a danger to others, but for the sake of argument I'm going to say that they're not)? The skydiver is an adult, capable of making thier own decisions about what happens to themself, they signed a waiver. And yes, it would suck to have to watch someone ignore good advice and act in a reckless manner. But some people feel the need to learn the hard way, and hopefully the hard way does not involve death or a serious injury.

Morally, if you keep warning someone and trying to educate them but they still won't listen, I feel that you've done your moral responsibility.

[kelel01 1]

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Morally, if you keep warning someone and trying to educate them but they still won't listen, I feel that you've done your moral responsibility.

Agreed. But if you have an official capacity, you have NOT fulfilled your responsibility by simply warning someone.

And if you're selling a canopy, why is it so hard to call the DZO or S&TA (if you're not already aware of their canopy skills or are unqualified to determine them)?

Kelly

[ladyskydiver 0]

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Say I want to sell my Stiletto 107 to someone. I ask them how many jumps they have, what they're flying now, etc...People can always lie to you to get what they want.

True, people can lie about their experience level. But, I think that morally, you've done what you needed to do by asking those questions. You've asked them the questions and at that point in time, if they lie and say they have the experience and don't, you morally aren't responsible because you did your job. You asked. When they lied, they made the decision to accept the consequences and are now responsible for their decisions. Prior to them lying about their experience level, I would consider it maybe a lack of knowledge about the canopy. After they lied, it's their own damn fault what happens.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[chopchop 0]

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I'm not talking about just sueing. And yes, I get the moral side of it. Morally, don't you have an oblibation to take the keys away from a drunk no matter what? Isn't that legally stealing, but morally acceptable? Why do people who know better than the sellers, let the jumpers on the plane? Why do they continue to jump? There are ways to stop them. We are all involved. People are too fast to place blame ONLY on the one who profits. -Tony

Exactly.. last year one of the senior jumpers (not a staff memeber) at our dz walked up to a guy who had just brought his canopy in from the landing area and laid his rig down. He calmly walks over, disconnects it, and walks away with it saying "You are not ready for this canopy yet." No one challenged him and the other jumper just stood there open-mouthed. After a little argument, he hooked his old canopy back up.

He did not sell him the canopy, he was not the S & TA or the DZO or staff of any kind.. He was just being morally responsible for the other jumper and himself as he really didn't want to be in the pattern with him. I think he set a great example.

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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True, people can lie about their experience level. But, I think that morally, you've done what you needed to do by asking those questions. You've asked them the questions and at that point in time, if they lie and say they have the experience and don't, you morally aren't responsible because you did your job. You asked. When they lied, they made the decision to accept the consequences and are now responsible for their decisions.

I'm with you on this one. Recently I sold my Crossfire2 139 to someone from Perris Valley and I did take the time to ask them about their experience and hopefully their response was truthful (for their sake). This person told me they had 600+ skydives (enough jump experience to jump this Crossfire2 139) and then they actually thanked me for asking the question. Now if this person was telling a lie, then what am I to do? Make a trip to Perris Valley to ask questions? Some might say that I could always call the DZ and ask about a certain jumper, but at a big DZ like Perris Valley, is the DZO, ST&A and/or manifest expected to know everyone who jumps there?

People need to be held responsible for their own actions. We don't need babysitters in this sport. Skydiving is not for everyone. It takes a special breed of person to handle the dynamic environments we jump in.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[PLFKING 3]

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If you can't fly a canopy and buy it anyway, against other people's advice...who's to blame? I think the person who bought the canopy.

So's the guy who buys a Hayabusa for his first bike, then leaves the road doing 120 mph.

So's the guy who eats at McD's every single day, then sues because he's a lard-ass.

So's the guy who smokes for 30 years, then sues because he develops emphysema.

So's the thief who gets caught.

So's the moron (me) who gets pulled by the cops this morning on the way to work for doing 52 in a 35 zone.

I can empathize with anyone who makes a mistake in their procedures and hurts themselves.....but someone who knowingly disregards advice and engages in risky practices has to be willing to accept the consequences.....it's called being an adult.


Don

"When in doubt I whip it out,
I got me a rock-and-roll band.
It's a free-for-all."

[tonyhathaway 0]

People do need to ask questions to who they are trying to sell something to. I think most do. I have held onto gear for months as the first one who wanted it, the gear was too small for. At the end of the day, if someone gets the gear, however they get it, that "A" license says they can and that also makes them responsible for their own actions. Yes the one who sold them a "wrong" canopy might be an asshole for it, but responsible is opening up a whole other area. -Tony

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[FallingAngel 0]

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last year one of the senior jumpers (not a staff memeber) at our dz walked up to a guy who had just brought his canopy in from the landing area and laid his rig down. He calmly walks over, disconnects it, and walks away with it saying "You are not ready for this canopy yet." No one challenged him and the other jumper just stood there open-mouthed. After a little argument, he hooked his old canopy back up.

He did not sell him the canopy, he was not the S & TA or the DZO or staff of any kind.. He was just being morally responsible for the other jumper and himself as he really didn't want to be in the pattern with him. I think he set a great example.

I have to disagree with you on this. Taking someone's canopy away from them like that is not treating them like an adult. If they didn't like being in the pattern with that person, there are ways to avoid them...I know jumpers who will sit in breaks to avoid traffic and let it clear before they land. If you have enough landing area, you can also pick different landing areas.

I can totally understand a person's desire to feel safe at thier DZ, but taking away someone's property without authority?

[chopchop 0]

I can see your point. but it got his attention.. They sat down later that day and discussed it. He honed his skills and a month or two later flew that canopy fine.. This may not work well in all cases.. In this one, it was perfect.

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

[FallingAngel 0]

Good, I'm glad it worked. I suppose sometimes people need a wake up call, and I guess in this case, instead of that person hurting themself, it was a little embarrassment (at least I'd be embarrassed! and angry). And, I do agree that it might not be the best solution all the time. But is there ever one best solution?