happythoughts 0 #26 October 4, 2004 QuoteI've been with big name plane captains that did bugger-all I understand that it is now the plane captains responsibility to pull the front-floater back in the plane on go-arounds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #27 October 4, 2004 QuoteJust for conversation... A lot of new people are going to freeflying. A lot of the flatfly big-way attempt participants are old geezers. If this trend continues, there may come a point where there are not enough experienced flatfliers to break the existing records. Discuss among yourselves... I have been in many positions for big-ways: player, plane captain, organizer, support person, go-to person, ringer, substitute for someone and whatever else. I have done every exit position (floater, diver, base - lead, left and right trail) on ~100-ways. I have over 500 jumps on 100+-ways and ~60 jumps on 300~+-ways. I will say to the people that have only done the player positions [even if the player position covers all the exit positions], your perspective on big-way dives is limited. It is not until you are involved in the organization these types of dives that you fully understand what all goes into making the dive work. There are different philosophies about how to get 100 or more capable and qualified people on the load. I have been on +100-ways that had someone walk on at the last minute and do the dive to successful completion and I have been on dives were everyone was present and participated from the get go. Years ago, just getting a 100-way was a big thing. Now we have ~100-ways almost every weekend in the peak season. That contributes to the problem of having some sort of 'record' dive. People's money and vacation time get stretched out so they can only do some of the ~100-ways. Getting and staying on a big-way load (not a camp type load) has several paths. You can do try-out camps or demonstrate abilities in competition or other big-way events. I personally have never done a try out camp to get on a big-way load. The occasional camp I have done was only because nothing else was going on at the dz. Posting-interuptus has cut my reply down, but if you do want more info on how the big-way dives work from the organizational side let me know, I'll reply within a couple of days. One thing I want to mention is that boredom (aka not enough challenge) would be the biggest reason for not having enough people on a big-way load or why the experienced jumpers do not participate, more than jumpers are 'old geezers'. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #28 October 4, 2004 QuoteNot true at all, Bill. There are many, many capable primarilly-flat skydivers out there who simply don't want to spend the money going to camps and paying other people for their "OK" to get on those jumps. Likewise, there are plenty of capable big-way jumpers out there who get assed-up that they have to pay full price to get on those records while others get free rides. If the playing field were level for all attendees, then more people would participate. Chuck Good points. Sadly, much the same thing has been happening with CRW lately. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #29 October 4, 2004 QuoteIf I work for almost a year to organize a big way, state record, etc. should I pay myself full price? If the answer is no, then where do I draw the line? Do plane captains get a free ride? Do video guys? If I invite BJ, Ponce, Kate, Dan or Tony to come do they get a free ride? I understand your position, but I also think there has to be some room to get the quality people you need to make the big way safe, fun and successful. Blues, If the 'quality people' aren't there because they love what they are doing. If they do not share their experience and skill freely and gladly, not only should they not be paid ...they shouldn't be there. Somehow, "My House, My Rules" has taken over many aspects of skydiving and lost sight of the beauty. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greybeard 0 #30 October 5, 2004 Noting Chuck's words carefully, I submit that a close look at the "world team" may disclose that they are a bunch of 'old farts'! It just may be time for the youngsters in the sport to start to develop and build a cadre of international "world team" jumpers who, with the serious advantage of wind tunnel and expert mentoring, will soon find the old stories just old stories. The existing, soon to be forgotten, "world team", started out with a bunch of youngsters with a deep desire to accomplish something greater that themselves. !!!! Don't look for a hand up! Build your own damn ladder!!! Go kids, GO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #31 October 5, 2004 QuoteNoting Chuck's words carefully, I submit that a close look at the "world team" may disclose that they are a bunch of 'old farts'! It just may be time for the youngsters in the sport to start to develop and build a cadre of international "world team" jumpers who, with the serious advantage of wind tunnel and expert mentoring, will soon find the old stories just old stories. The existing, soon to be forgotten, "world team", started out with a bunch of youngsters with a deep desire to accomplish something greater that themselves. !!!! Don't look for a hand up! Build your own damn ladder!!! Go kids, GO! Sometimes when the complexity and diversity of an activity makes it difficult to devine, look at the activities surrounding it. Let's look at ...hack. :) DZ games of hack on the DZ used to be a bunch of people in a circle all working cooperatively to keep the hack going. You may take a couple three cool shots, but the object is to pass and keep it going. Watch hack on DZ's now. It's pretty much one person showing their stuff with a few other people waiting to show their stuff. I'm not criticizing this but I believe, however, it does give a glimpse of the current skydiving mind set and I wonder if that mind set is geared toward large ladder construction. Things change. Not for 'better' or 'worse' ...they just change. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 35 #32 October 5, 2004 Quote1. dont want to wait on the ground for others to jump with, rather just keep getting on load after load...and just FF since they can do it alone. The need it now mentality, and no patience to learn...or be organized. "I have to get up NOW, im gonna miss a load!" I don't think that's entirely true. All of my jumps last weekend were freefly jumps and they were all organized. We did points in our head down exit and we had slots once we flipped into sits. After each jump I debriefed with the freefly school organizer while watching the video and he gave me pointers for the next jumps. It doesn't sound too different than smaller RW dives, we're just flying our bodies differently.She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eeneR 1 #33 October 5, 2004 Quote don't think that's entirely true. All of my jumps last weekend were freefly jumps and they were all organized. I am not saying there are not organized FF there is a ton. What im refering to are the new students just off AFF....so torqued up that they dont want to wait to be organized, and want to jump now......they just go up and FF...going up and doing solo's just to get in the air...they get board quicky doing solo belly, then decided to start Freeflying, and go up and do sit flying etc...still not being organized or coached....She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kramer 0 #34 October 5, 2004 Hey...I love bellyflying just as much as I do freeflying. Both of them have their pros and cons...I can't stand it when friends of mine refuse to do a belly jump like they're going to get cancer or something if they do. What's so bad about them, I fail to see. Anywho, maybe 10 years from now, and a few more thousand jumps...I'll be the first person on both the RW World Record and Head-Down World Record. (Hey, a guy can dream. ) The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brothermuff65 0 #35 October 5, 2004 (Okay, I'll probably get yelled at for this, but here goes. I have way more rw jumps than belly flying, and I know nothing, so that's my disclaimer. My favorite thing to do in the sky is big-way stuff. I used to love going up there with 20 friends and celebrating on the ground after a successful jump. I don't do big-ways as much anymore because of the attitudes associated with it. Big-way flyers tend to be less fun than freefliers. If I'm looking around on a big-way, I won't see that many smiles. Yes, I know that people are taking the dive seriously, but lighten up. This is my hobby...not my life. I do it because I enjoy it, and it makes me smile. Yes, it would be nice to complete every formation, but as long as everyone is safe and having fun, it doesn't really matter. That's why I like hanging out with the freefliers better. It's been awhile for me to see someone on the other side of a formation wave at me, geek me, etc. I miss that stuff in big-way flying. It felt more like a party then. ) come jump with the muff brothers at skydive city. we try to make all dives fun whether it is a 4 pt 20 way or a 0 pt 8 way we are going to have fun and help th rest have fun also muff muff muff come join us ,(we will have a bunch of us at the harvest moon boogie at st george s.c.)we try to have fun all the time cause you aint gonna be here but once so you got to enfoy it while you can p.s. belly flying is mostly r.w. flyingtill later have fun & love each other seeya mb65johnny gates Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kramer 0 #36 October 5, 2004 This man is the shiznit. For those of you who have never been on a Johnny Gates organized load (and I know most of you have), I'd recommend you do so ASAP. Very fun, educational, safe (or at least he tricked me into thinking so) skydives. Muff #3491 The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
