20+ years of PD reserves (and "too old reserves")

[pchapman 262]

When did PD reserves first come on the market?

Some time at the end of the 1980s I think; someone newer at PD recalls 1988. I don't have a Paragear catalog that goes back that far, and the PD web site isn't exact about it.

Over the years we've seen threads on how some riggers start refusing to pack things beyond a certain life, down to as little as 20 years.

I wonder to what degree they are fibbing or just using a 20 year limit as an excuse because they don't like particular gear. Maybe they don't like light weight round reserves from the acid mesh era, or think someone is heavily overloading an older design square reserve which is more likely to stall out when the jumper tries to flare it.

There can be valid reasons for those beliefs, but that's a separate issue from calendar age and the slow degradation of nylon over time.

In the US, the PD reserve seems to be considered the first "modern" square reserve, in that it is OK at higher loadings, is well reinforced, and continues to be popular.

Given that it is now about 20 years old, I'm curious whether any riggers will change their tune about how old is too old. Are some going to start saying, "Get rid of that 20 year old piece of PD crap?"
(Another issue is what happens when all those little boxes on PD reserves start getting filled out, to see what opinion is, what people do with them (especially outside the US), what PD's porosity tests on them show, and to what degree PD releases them for further use.)

[councilman24 36]

Your a rigger. You ARE "they". What's your answers?

There will come a time with all certified gear when I won't put my name on it. Another rigger might very well chose to. Sometimes that's 5 years(red faded to pink by the sun), sometimes that's 25 years, sometimes that's because it's obsolete and there are 5 generations more modern/reliable gear available (think Safety Star - no I won't pack one). Is 20 years hard and fast? Not yet, for most gear. But 18 or 19 is time to start having the discussion.

If not obsolete or showing significant wear almost everything that has been in use is getting tired after 20 years. PD's boxes added up to LT 14 years at 120 day cycle, probably about 20 years in reality. They've already told us they have to go back (in the US), and are going back.

And yep, I'll send them down the road if they don't take my advice to replace a reserve or harness. Nothing special about PD. PD is not God! Oh wait, Bill Booth wasn't God, maybe PD is? Naaaaa, we all know Sherman is God.

BTW I think ParaGear has been using 15 years for a very long time.

Not at home with my ParaGear library.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 558]

"20 years" is the sort of over-simplified answer we hand out during rigging courses.

It eliminates all the round reserve canopies from the acid mesh era, Greene Star harnesses, Top Secret containers, etc.

That only leaves "closet queens." While "closet queens" may not be worn out after 20 years, they probably require manuals, skills and special tools only remembered by grumpy, old, grey-bearded Master Riggers.
The simple answer is to take "closet queens" to GOBRMR.

The other problem is young skydivers "extrapolating" that old reserves can be operated the same as modern designs. Picture a huge, stupid, white man hanging under a Micro Raven 120!!!!!!!

If you brought me a 20 year old PD reserve, I would inspect it and estimate (nobody trusts those little boxes on the label) how many times it had been repacked and deployed. If the number of deployments exceeded 25 and it had been repacked more than 40 times, I would mail it back to the factory for an inspection.

Mind, you, if a PD reserve has been in service for 12 months per year, for the entire 20 years, it is probably worn out.

[bliston 0]

Interesting fact I heard from Kolla about a year ago is that (at least at the time of the conversation) every PD Reserve that has been sent back for inspection for reaching the 40 packs jobs or 25 deployments mark has been re-certified for use.

Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[pchapman 262]

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Interesting fact I heard from Kolla about a year ago is that (at least at the time of the conversation) every PD Reserve that has been sent back for inspection for reaching the 40 packs jobs or 25 deployments mark has been re-certified for use.
Ben

Great to hear, that's something I hadn't yet asked the factory about!

[fcajump 153]

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Interesting fact I heard from Kolla about a year ago is that (at least at the time of the conversation) every PD Reserve that has been sent back for inspection for reaching the 40 packs jobs or 25 deployments mark has been re-certified for use.

Ben

Very reassuring. Guess that decision to have them recertified instead of simply junked was a good one. How long is the recertified label good for?

Personally, I generally hold to the 20 year rule of thumb for many reasons (wear/tear/sun/designs/liability/etc).

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[mdrejhon 8]

All my gear is about 15 years old, except the Cypres2 AAD, (sabre 170, PD143R, Vector2). When I got it, the gear was a 200-jump closet queen with a Raven Micro 150 reserve. I gradually decided to replace the reserve with a PD143R that was slightly older than the Raven Micro (1994 versus 1996), because, simply, the PD143R is much safer at a wingload of 1.3 than Raven Micro.

I personally rather jump a 22-year old recertified PD143R in 2016 rather than a 20-year old brand new Raven Micro (near zero repacks that is), if I still keep this as my second rig as I likely will, when I get a new rig in the next 12 months or so... (Probably new Pilot 140, second old PD143R, and some undecided container.)

[riggerrob 558]

Backing councilman ....

There are three reasons to "life" parachutes.
First, normal wear-and-tear.
Secondly, retiring round canopies from the acid mesh era.
Thirdly, modern parachutes are considerably better than older technology.

I recently reviewed service limits on pilot emergency parachutes.
Most manufacturers set a twenty year "life" on pilot emergency parachutes.
National says not to repack any of their gear more than 20 years old.
Para-Phernalia will not repack any Softies more than 20 years old.
Bulter refuses to repack PEPs more than 20 years old.
GQ Defence says "2.1 15 years subject to a critical inspection at 10 years" .... on all their 150, 250, 350, etc. PEPs.
Ron Dionne would prefer that any of his harnesses - more than a decade old - would be retired.

Strong RECOMMENDS factory inspections on their Para-Cushion PEPs, but does not INSIST on 8-year inspections like their tandem gear.

In conclusion, there is little motivation to ground PD reserves more than 20 years old - as long as they pass factory inspections - because even PD admits that their latest Optimum series of reserves are only a minor improvement on their first series of PD reserves.
Yes, Optimums open slightly better and flare slightly better and pack slightly smaller, but most of the guys who still own original PD reserves also own odler containers that are correctly-sized to fit their old PD reserves.
Unless their old container is faded, frayed and filthy, few skydivers will be willing to replace both reserve and container.

[councilman24 36]

If these people want a service life I wish they would do it unequivocally!

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I recently reviewed service limits on pilot emergency parachutes.
Most manufacturers set a twenty year "life" on pilot emergency parachutes.
National says not to repack any of their gear more than 20 years old.

In really wish washy language,

"The formal determination of “Time / Life” or service life of a non-military personnel parachute is still open ended and non specific. Someone must take the initiative and make a judgment call to ground it. By comparison: “Personnel (military) parachutes have a determined service life (a maximum shelf life) without use of 16.5 years, and every personnel parachute is stamped with a manufacturing date that starts its life-cycle clock. A personnel parachute is also stamped with the date that it is first placed in service (PIS). From that point on, a parachute’s service life cannot exceed 12 years. The longer the unit sits on the shelf the less service life it has once placed in service.”
The Parachute Industry Association (PIA) has visited this issue without conclusion to date. Until the PIA specifies or recommends otherwise, it is the opinion of the current management at National Parachute that the maximum service life is 20 years from date of manufacture."

What the hell does this mean? I take to mean a 20 year service life per the manufacturer. The previous manual was even more wishy washy. But what the 'opinion of the current management..." means to the FAA is up for grabs.

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Para-Phernalia will not repack any Softies more than 20 years old.

Paraphernalia might not pack them but Dan still hasn't put a service life in his manual. (that I can find) Threatens to every time I talk to him.

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Bulter refuses to repack PEPs more than 20 years old.

But the manual says "When used in civil aircraft in the United States of America, under the rules and regulations of the Federal
Aviation Administration this parachute has an estimated service life of 20 years."

What does an 'estimated' service life mean to the feds? This one I take as NOT a manufacturer's service life.

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GQ Defence says "2.1 15 years subject to a critical inspection at 10 years" .... on all their 150, 250, 350, etc. PEPs.

No doubt on their new stuff. But the old U.S. company stuff? I apply it but many don't.

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Ron Dionne would prefer that any of his harnesses - more than a decade old - would be retired.

Hmm, why don't I know what Ron Dionne makes? and couldn't figure it out. But if TSO'd what does "prefer" mean? Derek Thomas once stated in a public meeting he wants a service life of 10 years. But probably won't ever do it.

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Strong RECOMMENDS factory inspections on their Para-Cushion PEPs, but does not INSIST on 8-year inspections like their tandem gear.

Once again, not imposed in a manual.

Either get the balls to do it, and make some people mad and have airworthy gear grounded or leave it and we'll struggle along the way we are!

I don't much care which, except I don't own any gear less than 10 years old and I just bought a 'brand new' Reflex, never jumped and know of another never packed for sale.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 558]

Agreed councilman,

In this fiercely-competitive capitalist economy, companies are afraid that - if they set short service lives - they will lose sales.
They are afraid that pilots will pay bigger bucks for antiquated designs simply because they have no retirement date.

[RiggerLee 61]

One of my problems is the deeply ambigues nature of some of these statements and the small changes they try to sneek into the revisions of their instructions. Things they do not draw people attention to. It' like they want there rigs to be illeagule because it removes the liability from them. I mean if they truly wanted to take a hard stand and stand on a hill top proclameing it to the world I'd respect that even if I didn't agree with it. But what the hell does that paragraph from national mean? Pilot calls up to buy a rig and they say there is not a service life but then som one brings you an old rig and expects you to pack it with that in the manual. come on.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com