AggieDave 6 #26 January 3, 2005 I wonder if people would pay the prices of lift tickets if tandems didn't help keep DZs in business. Lift tickets should actually be priced somewhere around $40 for a fun jump...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #27 January 3, 2005 QuoteIt's definitely a great introduction to the sport. Why the typical tandem price is set where it generates so much profit (if it does as claimed) is anyone's guess. I reckon whuffos don't really want to shop around for a cheap tandem skydive for obvious reasons, and maybe that's a good thing. They are priced as the market will handle, with that said, generally speaking there is quite a bit of overhead in a tandem skydive. Instructor, packer, fuel cost, pilot, plane, tandem rig, tandem rig maintance, then there's a bit of money left over for profit. Generally speaking if I've paid attention correctly, an average DZ makes about $20 profit per tandem. That's compared to around $5 per fun jumper.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kbone 0 #28 January 3, 2005 QuoteLift tickets should actually be priced somewhere around $40 for a fun jump... Then most people would do only half as many jumps as they are doing now. So in the end, the DZ earns the same amount of money regardless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kbone 0 #29 January 3, 2005 Quotean average DZ makes about $20 profit per tandem. I would guess they make a lot more than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superman32 0 #30 January 3, 2005 The price of training can pose a financial strain on the student, which in turn my result in someone jumping once per month just to remain current, or ending up buying the cheapest gear that is less than appropriate or suitable for the student Inveniam Viam aut Faciam I'm back biatches! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #31 January 3, 2005 QuoteI wonder if people would pay the prices of lift tickets if tandems didn't help keep DZs in business. Lift tickets should actually be priced somewhere around $40 for a fun jump... Well I don't believe that assertion, it may be higher but I don't buy your number. I know if one DZ in my area started charging $40 I'd go to another along with hundreds of other fun jumpers. Some DZs in my area charge $17 to try to attract fun jumpers. I think Fun jumpers are infact a useful and profitable component of the business. Now maybe if you wanted to generate the same margins as another segment of your business you could try to raise prices, but it wouldn't work because of competition and most DZOs know it. I understand DZs have a lot of fixed overheads but there is a difference between absolute profit and the relative margins of different segments of your business and this is what's being used to guilt fun jumpers over the whole tandem jumping issue, something that is in fact largely out of their control. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #32 January 3, 2005 QuoteQuotean average DZ makes about $20 profit per tandem. I would guess they make a lot more than that. That would be after the following bills are paid: Manifest, how many are working that day and how many hours Pilots, how many loads did they fly Fuel for the Airplanes Insurance for the airplanes Parts and labor for the airplane Grounds keepers? (to include any one that is working to keep the DZ looking nice or picking up jumpers0 Untility bills (water, sewer, lights, heat/AC) Parts and labor to keep the gear safe (reserve repacks, and paying the packers) paying the JM Oh and let's not forget all the little things that are needed around the DZ, I'm sure you've used some of the toilet paper out there in the past. Until you have done the books for a DZ, you have no idea how much or how little they make. Damn, I can't believe I got sucked into this thread.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #33 January 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteIt's definitely a great introduction to the sport. Why the typical tandem price is set where it generates so much profit (if it does as claimed) is anyone's guess. I reckon whuffos don't really want to shop around for a cheap tandem skydive for obvious reasons, and maybe that's a good thing. They are priced as the market will handle, with that said, generally speaking there is quite a bit of overhead in a tandem skydive. Instructor, packer, fuel cost, pilot, plane, tandem rig, tandem rig maintance, then there's a bit of money left over for profit. Generally speaking if I've paid attention correctly, an average DZ makes about $20 profit per tandem. That's compared to around $5 per fun jumper. No doubt they're priced at what the market will bear, the sky is also blue. I'm surprised by your numbers though, but you have illustrated that fun jumpers make a healthy profit for the DZ. Wow 25% net on gross receipts is a huge profit from fun jumpers especially when compared to the percentage on tandems. When you consider the seating on a load 2 vs 1 seat the information is even more interesting. I do think your numbers on tandems are unfortunately bogus though. I've seen second tandem jumps for $99. You could also look at an AFF jump and consider you have 3 rigs 2 AFFI and 3 seats on a load on a cheaper jump and know instantly that your tandem numbers are complete rubbish based on the DZs I've seen, unless they're throwing money away on loss leaders which they aren't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #34 January 3, 2005 QuoteI do think your numbers on tandems are unfortunately bogus though. I've seen second tandem jumps for $99 Yup, infact my DZ offers $99 tandems. Do you think those are providing a profit or an attempt to get the person to continue in skydiving with AFF and provide more profit? Atleast 23 more student jumps, then the gear sales, etc. Believe what you want for the numbers, you really don't have that much of an idea of the costs involved with running a DZ. I honestly think you'd be very very surprised if you learned the reality.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #35 January 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuotean average DZ makes about $20 profit per tandem. I would guess they make a lot more than that. That would be after the following bills are paid: Manifest, how many are working that day and how many hours Pilots, how many loads did they fly Fuel for the Airplanes Insurance for the airplanes Parts and labor for the airplane Grounds keepers? (to include any one that is working to keep the DZ looking nice or picking up jumpers0 Untility bills (water, sewer, lights, heat/AC) Parts and labor to keep the gear safe (reserve repacks, and paying the packers) paying the JM Oh and let's not forget all the little things that are needed around the DZ, I'm sure you've used some of the toilet paper out there in the past. Until you have done the books for a DZ, you have no idea how much or how little they make. Damn, I can't believe I got sucked into this thread. True but after those costs are fairly amortized against all jumps at a healthy DZ I'd guess the margin for a tandem to be in excess of $100. Discounted offers I've seen seem to confirm this and place the margin even higher for some DZs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #36 January 3, 2005 QuoteTrue but after those costs are fairly amortized against all jumps at a healthy DZ I'd guess the margin for a tandem to be in excess of $100. Discounted offers I've seen seem to confirm this and place the margin even higher for some DZs. What do you consider a health DZ? I think most DZs in the country struggle to stay a float. I'm talking the ones that are not destination DZs that bring in the large number of experienced jumps.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kbone 0 #37 January 3, 2005 Quoteyou really don't have that much of an idea of the costs involved with running a DZ As a DZ owner, you should never be concerned with the bottom line. It's not about the money. It is about love for the sport. You can't get rich off a dropzone. Most DZ owners realize this. However they are rich in other ways. They are looked up to like Gods for what they provide. They get a lot of attention, especially from chicks, if you know what I mean. A dropzone is like a monastery and the DZ owner is the caretaker. It seems like some DZ owners have forgotten about their roots in exchange for the almighty dollar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superman32 0 #38 January 3, 2005 Wow!!! $99 jumps We pay $175 to $199 per tandem and the same for each aff jump Inveniam Viam aut Faciam I'm back biatches! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #39 January 3, 2005 QuoteAs a DZ owner, you should never be concerned with the bottom line. It's not about the money. It is about love for the sport. Yes and no. You need money to keep the place open.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #40 January 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteI do think your numbers on tandems are unfortunately bogus though. I've seen second tandem jumps for $99 Yup, infact my DZ offers $99 tandems. Do you think those are providing a profit or an attempt to get the person to continue in skydiving with AFF and provide more profit? Atleast 23 more student jumps, then the gear sales, etc. Believe what you want for the numbers, you really don't have that much of an idea of the costs involved with running a DZ. I honestly think you'd be very very surprised if you learned the reality. Am I also expected to believe that the first 4 AFF jumps are loss leaders too? What about AFF 5? 2 rigs vs 1 tandem and greater qualification for the staff same seats on the plane. If I believe your numbers on tandem margins everything would have to be a loss leader until the student is back to fun jumping. Waving your hands and saying we have no idea on costs doesn't cut it, we don't have all the numbers but we have some. All this aside, you've confirmed that fun jumpers supplement DZs with a helathy profit which was the main point. Obviously I still don't buy your tandem numbers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #41 January 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteAs a DZ owner, you should never be concerned with the bottom line. It's not about the money. It is about love for the sport. Yes and no. You need money to keep the place open. Definitely agree with this, profit is vital and earned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kbone 0 #42 January 3, 2005 QuoteDefinitely agree with this, profit is vital and earned. I agree but the overhead with most dropzones is pretty low. They are located in far out rual areas where the land is cheap. All you really need is a Manifest booth a dirt airstrip a very old plane a tandem rig or 2 an outhouse that is about it. Skydivers are not picky about their facilities. The airplane is the only real expense with fuel costs. How can dropzones not handle these costs? edited to add: assuming the DZ owner and his girl live at the dropzone, the DZ owner can fly the plane and the girl can run the ticket counter. Damn! It's just that easy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #43 January 3, 2005 QuoteAll you really need is a Manifest booth a dirt airstrip a very old plane a tandem rig or 2 an outhouse that is about it. Skydivers are not picky about their facilities. Sorry, a DZ like that isn't going to attract many jumpers. IMO jumpers are very picky about the facilities. Hey, I got a great idea, you open a DZ and let's see how many of us come out there and jump Wait, wait............really they will come just because of youMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kbone 0 #44 January 3, 2005 QuoteSorry, a DZ like that isn't going to attract many jumpers. IMO jumpers are very picky about the facilities. Not true, I have in fact been to a couple of dropzones like the one I described and they did quite well and had a good vibe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #45 January 3, 2005 And I'm sure there was a hug wait to get on a load.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #46 January 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteDefinitely agree with this, profit is vital and earned. I agree but the overhead with most dropzones is pretty low. They are located in far out rual areas where the land is cheap. All you really need is a Manifest booth a dirt airstrip a very old plane a tandem rig or 2 an outhouse that is about it. Skydivers are not picky about their facilities. The airplane is the only real expense with fuel costs. How can dropzones not handle these costs? Don't know what you mean. They obviously do handle these costs or they wouldn't be around. DZs that don't aren't around any more or changed hands. Many of the DZs I jump at are situated on land now worth millions. They could sell tomorrow and realize a fortune, they choose not to. Of course the appreciation in value of owned land is ultimately profit, but may be a timebomb for the sport. If they're leasing it certainly is. I never considered the aircraft, equipment & facilities cheap, but the DZs I've jumped at are some of the best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #47 January 3, 2005 Quote I've seen second tandem jumps for $99. You could also look at an AFF jump and consider you have 3 rigs 2 AFFI and 3 seats on a load on a cheaper jump and know instantly that your tandem numbers are complete rubbish based on the DZs I've seen, unless they're throwing money away on loss leaders which they aren't. The DZ's pay AFFi's about $20 reserve side and about $25 main side and their slot. I forgot about the about $35-40 you pay to the one that teaches the FJC all day. So out of that $225 Aff jump you have already spent $125 to get the JM's to altitude and to pay them. With AFF-I's the DZ is not responcable for any of the JM's gear cost unless they are providing gear for jumpers which is unheard of. I've been told between $2-10 per jump on student gear needs put back to pay for maintence and replacement. Thats $95 gone between the JM's and gear maintence. Toss in the student lift ticket and now you are up to $150 (-5 for packing). So the DZ gets at most $75 which has to cover all the stuff mentioned in Marys post. For a Tandem you have 2 slots, the TM fee of $20-30, the cost of the $8-10,000 rig to be paid off, the maintence on said rig and everything else associated with a DZ. I've heard Hotsection on PT-6 turbine is over $100,000. Double that on an Otter. That is approx 2700 AFF jumps needed to cover just the hotsection rebuilds every few years. Want to pay for the new tires, the wing rebuilds, the landing leg replacements, the cost of replacing jumpdoors, and general airplance maintence in there also? $5 on a fun jumper is something a lot of DZ's can only dream of. That tends to be Cessna DZ profit in my experience. There is a DZ that I look to fold in a year or two since they are running things as cheap as possible for the fun jumpers. They are a club that puts all the student profit back into their club to keep fun jumper costs down. They are actually flying the 182 at a loss on most loads and it still costs them $12 to get to 10k. One major aircraft leaser charges about $15-16 per slot to cover their costs. The DZ then has to pay out that cost to the leaser and they get the remaining $5 to cover their costs. Plane insurance skyrocketed recently and so has Gas costs. If anyone is bitching about how much they are paying, the stuff they have to put up with or any other bitching I encourage you to go and start your own DZ. Lots of people have tried to start up Cessna DZ's and lots of people have closed them up with in a few years due to not making any money to pay the bills. Try it your self if you want to see how long you can last on your savings.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
legalart 0 #48 January 3, 2005 This troll occasionally drops in to these forums to post deliberately negative and provocative crap. The first time I came to this web-site to learn what had happened to an injured skydiver he had stirred the pot regarding something as sensitive as her memorial service. Ignore this tripe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
killler 2 #49 January 3, 2005 People with out a clue talking about running a DZ.. The dropzone with a 182 and a few student rigs and a tandem Do it for the love of the sport and a few bucks at the end of the year as long as every thing goes great... throw a rod when you drop a cylinder and your in the hole for a year or two... The Ranch got turbine aircraft when bill richards got jumpers with money to put up $10,000 each so they could get a otter... It was about the love of the sport.... Students have been the backbone of skydiving since the 60's.... I don't like were skydiving has gone.... Jumpers who don't pack or "really" know how to spot... Never had to wash the belly of the 182 for a bad spot... Never sat in the hanger with a case of beer in the rain watching "Masters of the Sky" or know the story of CG godfrog by heart for your "A" test... and the fun of a crossbow tied to a pick-up truck on windy days... We did it for the love of the game... you can keep your turbines .... I'll always love that old cessna of mine.... I'll always be faithful, I'll jump her till the and of time.... Killer..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #50 January 3, 2005 Quote If anyone is bitching about how much they are paying, the stuff they have to put up with or any other bitching I encourage you to go and start your own DZ. I still don't see anything that says a DZ inevitably loses money on fun jumpers, (I always thought the $5 was on the high side as an estimate). I wasn't bitching, if you think we're supplemented then increase your fun jump ticket prices and quit bitchin at us about how hard you've got it and how grateful we should be that you ream tandem customers for our benefit. It ain't healthy. If you're setting an industry standard price on jump tickets that is turning DZs into tandem factories then fix it. Excuse me for being completely unapologetic for showing up and buying jump tickets from your business at the advertised price. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
