Pilot Chute hesitation & dumb luck

[danielcroft 2]

Ok, a couple of things to respond to here.

My packer, who is also a certified rigger, another friend who is a packer & my instructor have all described instances where a tight closing loop would effect the ability of the bag to leave the container. I don't think I'd do them justice attempting to paraphrase but, as I understand it from the people I've discussed this with, *slightly* loosening the closing loop (my rigger did this, not me. Well, I put the closing loop in and I've done it before but my rigger set the length) allows the dbag to occupy a less square shape and thus (so I've been told) reduce the likelihood of the bag staying in. I think the theory is that, when the edges of the container get squared off, the pressure of the packed canopy pushes on the corners & not on the closing loop. I'm relying on these very experienced people that I know to advise me as to how safe this rig is. I've definitely asked the question of many people and have been told that it could be better but is fine.

Regarding the distinction between hesitation & PCIT. My (poorly phrased) question was more where one becomes the other. My description was that PCH was fixable without a cutaway & PCIT is not. In my situation, *if* the tightness of the container was a factor then my hesitation could have been PCIT no? I'm wondering if these two malfunctions are points on a continuum or clearly defined in anyway. For the record, I'm studying for my B license & am actually reading the section on malfunctions. I had just read the PCIT section a day or two before this happened to me. Shame I didn't take the lesson & apply it. You're saying that a closing loop being tight has nothing to do with PCH but if the pull force (not from BOC, I mean pulling the pin) is never changed by the tightness of the closing loop (and therefore container) why do we care so much about loose closing loops (within reason)? I understand that a very loose closing loop can result in a premature deployment but I was under the (possible mistaken) impression that the tighter the closing loop, the more force would be required to pull the pin? Is this not the case?

As for the Infinity fitting a 190 main, I'll have to defer to my friend who owns it, he has a couple of thousand jumps and said it'd be ok. I'll find out which Infinity it is & check if the 190 is supported. If not, I could always just downsize... joke!!! I agree on the comment about the reserve.

I'm going to focus on getting a good throw and I think I'll have the rig checked out by a rigger to make sure they think it's ok too. So far I've had 6 good deployments out of 7 and based on what people are saying, the most likely cause is a weak throw due to complacency on my part. I can fix that. I can also make sure I'm giving my PC more wind in the event of hesitation.

I really do appreciate everyone's advice & comments on this. I have so much to learn about this stuff and it's not exactly a science.

[happythoughts 0]

Depending on remaining altitude, I have dropped one shoulder and allowed the airstream to run across my back.
That air pulled the PC off my back and opened.

The downside? Bad body position. Opened with line twists.

Another variable to mention here is kill lines.

After 700 or so jumps, kill lines will shrink.
The first time, your rigger can lengthen it.
The second time, it needs to be replaced.

You can have a good throw, but a short kill line, and the PC will be bouncing around on your back.

[popsjumper 2]

You're thinking, you're reading, you're asking, you're learning.
WooooHoooo!
That's what I like to hear!

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Ok, a couple of things to respond to here.

My packer, who is also a certified rigger, another friend who is a packer & my instructor have all described instances where a tight closing loop would effect the ability of the bag to leave the container. I don't think I'd do them justice attempting to paraphrase but, as I understand it from the people I've discussed this with, *slightly* loosening the closing loop (my rigger did this, not me. Well, I put the closing loop in and I've done it before but my rigger set the length) allows the dbag to occupy a less square shape and thus (so I've been told) reduce the likelihood of the bag staying in. I think the theory is that, when the edges of the container get squared off, the pressure of the packed canopy pushes on the corners & not on the closing loop.

Well, one can only pull the flaps in so far....to the point where the closing flap grommets are one on top of the other. It's a safe bet that the manufacturer has taken the final shape of the container/pack tray into consideration at design time. That "shape" is one of the reasons why the rig is limited to canopy size/pack volume. Having to tweak that "shape" with closing loop length raises red flags.

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Regarding the distinction between hesitation & PCIT. My (poorly phrased) question was more where one becomes the other. My description was that PCH was fixable without a cutaway & PCIT is not. In my situation, *if* the tightness of the container was a factor then my hesitation could have been PCIT no?

Ok...so now I'm reading that you really don't know exactly what happened. It happens that way sometimes. Also, maybe using the term "hesitation" to decribe a mental delay is confusing things.

So, when you realized that things weren't going normally, did you look over your shoulder?
If so, what did you see...
- The PC floating on your back?
- The PC with a fully extended bridal chasing behind you?

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I'm wondering if these two malfunctions are points on a continuum or clearly defined in anyway.

Two different problems with two different methods to handle them.

It's possible that you saw a PC floating in your burble, shook it off, and then experienced the PCIT with the PC pulling out the bridal to full extension but not pulling the main closing pin. It's possible that the PCIT cleared itself with no input from you.

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You're saying that a closing loop being tight has nothing to do with PCH....

That's correct. A PCH is putting little to no pull force on the pin.

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...but if the pull force (not from BOC, I mean pulling the pin) is never changed by the tightness of the closing loop (and therefore container) why do we care so much about loose closing loops (within reason)?

That's not correct. Main closing pin extraction force is indeed governed by main closing loop tightness...among other things. We care because we don't want it too tight nor too loose. Each generates its own set of problems that we can easily avoid with proper technique and/or gear maintenance.

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I was under the (possible mistaken) impression that the tighter the closing loop, the more force would be required to pull the pin? Is this not the case?

That is correct but keep in mind...you can only pull it so tight and that's to the point where the grommets are one on top of the other. The pin extraction force comes into play more and more when you are placing larger and larger canopies into the pack tray putting more and more pressure on the container flaps (and making it harder and harder to pack, BTW.).

Look at the opposite extreme...putting smaller and smaller canopies in. The smaller the canopy the more pack tray space available, right? Well, what happens when the canopy gets so small that no matter how short your loop is, the d-bag is flopping around inside the tray after closing.

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As for the Infinity fitting a 190 main, I'll have to defer to my friend who owns it, he has a couple of thousand jumps and said it'd be ok. I'll find out which Infinity it is & check if the 190 is supported. If not, I could always just downsize... joke!!! I agree on the comment about the reserve.

My money is that you are putting a too-large canopy into the rig OR, at minimum, pressing the upper limits on canopy size for the rig.

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I'm going to focus on getting a good throw and I think I'll have the rig checked out by a rigger to make sure they think it's ok too. So far I've had 6 good deployments out of 7 and based on what people are saying, the most likely cause is a weak throw due to complacency on my part. I can fix that. I can also make sure I'm giving my PC more wind in the event of hesitation.

I really do appreciate everyone's advice & comments on this. I have so much to learn about this stuff and it's not exactly a science.

It's good to see someone actually concerned enough to think, read, ask and learn. Keep it going, keep it going.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[danielcroft 2]

I've been told that different canopies have different shapes. In my case, I was jumping a spectre & now a sabre 2. They fit differently into the container and thus may have different issues with deployment (again, as I've been told). I've not had any off heading openings or any line twists with either main in the container I'm jumping. Well, I do get the right hand turn at the end of opening but I'm pretty sure that's me. I tried leaning in the harness a little to the left (I generally get off heading to the right as the canopy is just about fully open) and that seemed to stop the off heading. Only tried it on one jump though so, still working that out.

You're right, I didn't look. During the time period when I should have been looking, I was fumbling around like a total idiot. I've since discussed the distinction between hesitation & in tow issues and my wife (coach) explained that hesitation is when the bridle isn't at full extension, PCIT is when the bridle is at full extension & not pulling the main. This agrees with your description. For the record, I looked in the SIM for something about PCH and couldn't find it. I asked a couple of other people where it was but couldn't find anything. Is there something that I'm missing in the SIM regarding PCH (wouldn't be surprised!)?

The canopy is a little large for the rig but the rig is several years old ('02 I think) and has a lot of use and as such fits the canopies I've been using to the satisfaction of everyone that's looked. I have had people say that it's a bit tight, a master rigger and a packer but both felt that it was ok after I specifically asked whether it was dangerous or not. Also, when asked I said I wasn't packing it which seemed to make some difference to the master rigger.

Again, thanks for your time. I love learning everything I can about the dangerous hobbies I have. My ego creeps in from time to time but I have an awesome wife who helps kick that out of me.

[format 0]

I'll widen it a bit 'cause I see some familiarity

42th jump, in a hurry to fill up the plane, I grabbed some gear,
spring chute + handles so high - close to neck (!)
Ripcord BOC

Pulled at 3000...
1, 2, something's wrong
3, 4, NOTHING out
5, reaching for cutaway
and then.. Moron is born:
reaching for cutHandle I thought "since nothing out - cut away what?" (!?!)
Swiched focus on reserve.. pulled - No Go!
(because handle was near my neck - small arm force)
that's when I've died
Right hand coming to help the left - PPPULL! BANG!
White out - kinda 1000+ ft (neck pain)
Main is inflating (90 %) to the right
TWO out
Instant cutaway + left toggle.

A cypress fire (observers thought) was not.
The best explanation I've got so far that the loop was changed and that it was too long, kinda creating a tension knot preventing spring to deploy (elbow kick would've helped)

Oh yes, I've done EP check on the plane, adjusting to handles location, that's a gooood one
but the baaaad one was "to cutaway What?" -plain dumb

(it was nice to return 3 cables, rip, cut and res)
like POPS said - let's learn some more

What goes around, comes later.

[popsjumper 2]

PCH references in SIM:

SIM Section 4, Category A
G. EQUIPMENT PROBLEMS (AT TRAINING HARNESS)
4.
C.

SIM Section 4, Category B
C. EMERGENCY PROCEDURE REVIEW
3.
D.

Cat B Quiz, Question# 4

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Moron NOT born.

Total mal...two recognized methods of handling total mals.
1. Cutaway, deploy reserve
2. Immediately deploy reserve.

Each has pros and cons.
Which method were you trained at FJC?
Apparently the 2nd option because you thought of it in the air and went to it.

Gear maintenance was what caused the two out, not the method of handling the total mal. Glad you suceeded in the two-out cutaway...not everybody does.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[format 0]

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Which method were you trained at FJC?
Apparently the 2nd option because you thought of it in the air and went to it.

nothing out - cutaway, then reserve,
that's how I've been trained to respond

and that's why I use "M" word, nobody said I should "think" before EP
but I did.. and I think I don't like it

funny is that I've been commended:
"it was for you to decide and you did good"
inspite of previous and future EP

What goes around, comes later.

[danielcroft 2]

General rule seems to be that if you walk away, you did well. Doesn't mean you couldn't do better of course.

Clearly I could have.

I'll go check the SIM again for those references, thanks POPS.

[danielcroft 2]

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PCH references in SIM:

SIM Section 4, Category A
G. EQUIPMENT PROBLEMS (AT TRAINING HARNESS)
4.
C.

SIM Section 4, Category B
C. EMERGENCY PROCEDURE REVIEW
3.
D.

Cat B Quiz, Question# 4

c. To clear a pilot chute hesitation (burble), twist at the waist and look over your shoulder to change the airflow.

d. pilot chute hesitation:

(1) Twist while looking over the right shoulder to modify the airflow.

(2) Repeat over the left shoulder.