cutaway rig

[justme12001 0]

I was wondering if you were planning to make a tertiary rig to be worn with an already tso'd sport rig. If the tertiary rig had to be tso'd as well, and are there any rules as far as the front canopy being in a container or can it just be D-bagged

[diablopilot 2]

Depends, are you going to alter the TSO'd rig for this purpose?


If your idea is to simply have another main, then no. From personal experience, I find the easiest way to do this is to have a second harness.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[justme12001 0]

Don't plan on altering my TSO'd rig. A Second harness is exactly what I had in mind. Do you know of anywhere that I can get that in writing. My DZO says that it will have to be a TSO's harness as well. I think I have a way around it either way. I've cut the container off an existing rig, so already have the cutway handles and rings to attach the risers

[diablopilot 2]

If the third canopy is intended to be your first main to be deployed, then I can't see why a TSO is needed.

If you're going to jump the third canopy as a reserve or even as your second main to be deployed, the yeah, I can see why he might make a case for the TSO.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerpaul 1]

I think I see a misunderstanding here.

Your emergency/reserve parachute must be an approved parachute in an approved harness/container.

The extra harness could be used for the parachute you intend to chop, but it cannot be your emergency/reserve parachute because the harness is no longer approved.

If you want to do an intentional cutaway on your real rig so you know how it feels, you won't get this from a main on an extra harness.

UPT has a rig that is modified for this sort of use. You deploy a main from a normal main container, you chop it and go to a parachute that is in the reserve container. This is all "like real". But that second parachute can also be chopped if necessary, and you can deploy a chest-mounted approved parachute from an approved chest-mounted container.

Nonetheless, your DZ always has the right to refuse for just about any reason they like.

[pchapman 262]

Common understanding is that no certification is needed for whatever you want to wear, as long as you are already wearing one proper TSO'd rig.

(This all only applies for a 3rd canopy to play with, as opposed to a 3rd canopy as a backup reserve when intentionally chopping one's main. There I'm not sure of the US rules.)

For the 3rd canopy one can do all sorts of things, such as these in increasing order of complexity:

- direct bag it.
- hold the bag & PC while exiting back to wind
(But a safer way is:)
- add a pilot chute pouch and handle to the bag
- build a front container that includes some parts from the main container that was chopped off the old rig that one used to create the second harness
- custom build a front container

[riggerrob 558]

Similarly, Strong Enterprises built a rig for intentional cutaways that has all three canopies and containers on the back.

The first canopy is at the bottom and is deployed by a BOC. It is intended to be cutaway.

The second canopy is in the middle and is also a Stellar 190 reserve. It can also be cutaway if it malfunctions.

The third canopy is on top - in a standard reserve container (spring-loaded pilot chute etc.) and is also a Stellar 190 reserve. The third canopy cannot be cutaway.

The handle combinations are complex, so you need to follow the manuals carefully when jumping it.

Strong rents this - intentional cutaway - rig to prospective tandem instructors who have never had a reserve ride.

[skydiverek 56]

Wasn't there also a rig where the first canopy was on top (i.e. covering) the second canopy, so the only option was to go 1->2, and not 2->1? (there was of course also a third one, but it is not importmant for the matter of this post).

[riggerrob 558]

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Wasn't there also a rig where the first canopy was on top (i.e. covering) the second canopy, so the only option was to go 1->2, and not 2->1? (there was of course also a third one, but it is not important for the matter of this post).

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Yes,
and I helped build two of them for the Skyhawks (Canadian Army Parachute Demonstration Team).

In 1996 or 1997, the ladies on Rigging Innovations' production line built a pair of Telesis F 18 student rigs. F18 was the largest container that R.I. had built so far.
Then I modified them by adding a 3-ring hanging out the bottom edge of the back pad (sort of like the drogue release on a Vector 2 Tandem. this 3-Ring was for a very large flag.

I also modified the main container to make it double-layer. An extra flap separated the two canopies. First canopy was a "retired" old round canopy missing a few line, gores, etc. and was designed to streamer for a few seconds before being cut away.
The the second - deeper - main container held the canopy that the Skyhawk planned to land.
One BOC was on the right side and the second BOC was on the left side.
The cutaway canopy was attached to regular 3-Ring risers, but the "main" canopy's risers had an extra set of harness rings sewn on to attach the cutaway canopy was attached. So pulling individual cutaway handles released one side of the cutaway canopy, but pulling the regular cutaway handle released both the first and second main canopies.

From the outside, they looked like regular Telesis student rigs except for extra handles, complicated risers and a 3-Ring riser hanging out the bottom.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Wasn't there also a rig where the first canopy was on top (i.e. covering) the second canopy, so the only option was to go 1->2, and not 2->1? (there was of course also a third one, but it is not importmant for the matter of this post).

Rigging Innovations has made some like that in the past.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 3]

While the FAA requires you wear at least a single harness dual canopy rig it says nothing for or against wearing a second harness with a third canopy. I have used this type of system on TSO testing several times.

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a. Parachute Equipment. FAR Section 105.43 requires a
parachutist making an intentional jump to wear a single harness
dual pack parachute having at least one main parachute and one
approved auxiliary/reserve parachute. The main pack need not be
an approved type, but the auxiliary/reserve pack and the harness
are required to be an FAA-approved type. The FAA issues a TSO
which specifies the minimum performance standard for materials,
parts, processes, or appliances used on civil aircraft. (See FAR
Part 43, Appendix A(4).) The following are examples of approved
parachutes as explained in FAR Section 105.43(d).

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A military harness and chest mount reserve qualify as “approved” under Part 105.

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105.3____ Definitions.
For the purposes of this part—
Approved parachute means a parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a Technical Standard Order (C–23 series), or a personnel-carrying U.S. military parachute (other than a high altitude, high speed, or ejection type) identified by a Navy Air Facility, an Army Air Field, and Air Force-Navy drawing number, an Army Air Field order number, or any other military designation or specification number.

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Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

I think I see a misunderstanding here.

Your emergency/reserve parachute must be an approved parachute in an approved harness/container.

The extra harness could be used for the parachute you intend to chop, but it cannot be your emergency/reserve parachute because the harness is no longer approved.

If you want to do an intentional cutaway on your real rig so you know how it feels, you won't get this from a main on an extra harness.

UPT has a rig that is modified for this sort of use. You deploy a main from a normal main container, you chop it and go to a parachute that is in the reserve container. This is all "like real". But that second parachute can also be chopped if necessary, and you can deploy a chest-mounted approved parachute from an approved chest-mounted container.

Nonetheless, your DZ always has the right to refuse for just about any reason they like.

Just to be clear, I mentioned the UPT rig because it is one that closely resembles the operation of your normal rig.

Maybe I was wrong, but I thought the OP was interested in getting the experience of a "normal" cutaway. It seemed to me that he wanted to put the extra reserve on the extra harness, leaving the operation of his original system intact.

Sure, I have seen other tersh rigs, like the one with the second main hiding the "normal" main, but these rigs don't operate much like your normal rig, so I didn't mention them.

[pchapman 262]

So what are the rules in the US if one wants to do an intentional cutaway on one's regular main and use one's regular reserve?

(As opposed to playing with a 3rd canopy and chopping that, which has been well discussed here.)

Have people been able to easily do an intentional to try out their reserve?

(Where I am, in Canada, people used to just attach a military belly round to the front of the harness with separable rings, even if that didn't quite fit the official CSPA rules. Government rules don't cover the issue at all.)

[diablopilot 2]

All of my breakaways have been "intentional".



But of the 35 or so that I planed to do before ever getting on the plane, I followed the rules of having a main I intended to land as well as an approved reserve, as well as a main to breakaway from.

In practice all of the pre-planed ones were done with the breakaway main deployed either hand held or by chest mounted container.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,434]

>So what are the rules in the US if one wants to do an intentional cutaway
>on one's regular main and use one's regular reserve?

Most straightforward way is to pack both into an approved three-canopy system like the UPT setup. If you want to avoid that work, you can use your normal rig with an approved harness/belly reserve beneath it.

>people used to just attach a military belly round to the front of the harness
>with separable rings . . .

Careful with those things. I've seen separable rings put in places on rigs that would shred the harness if they were ever used for a terminal reserve deployment.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

>So what are the rules in the US if one wants to do an intentional cutaway
>on one's regular main and use one's regular reserve?

If you want to avoid that work, you can use your normal rig with an approved harness/belly reserve beneath it.

You might want to use a round in that belly-wart.
You can't chop the reserve on your regular rig.

[diablopilot 2]

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If you want to avoid that work, you can use your normal rig with an approved harness/belly reserve beneath it.

I don't know that that would meet the letter of the law.

It's an approved single harness dual parachute system that is required in the FAR's

When you pre-plan the breakaway, that main doesn't count, so that leaves you with two single harness, single parachute systems.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[justme12001 0]

I've got an old vector rig that I cut the container off of that I'm gonna wear under my sport rig, and d-bag another main. I think that should make me all legal, and it has the housings and all for cutaway handle and the rings for the risers. You can chop the reserve on your regular rig, it just requires a hook knife lol

[diablopilot 2]

That will work. Just remember it's going to put your pre-planned breakaway handle REAL close to your actual breakaway handle.

If you have the ability (read rigger or rigging skills and equipment) you may want to think about both relocating the housing and handle, and creating a loop handle that feels/looks different from the actual handle.

There is an incident in history resulting a fatality of a well known and accomplished skydiver who had a problem on a pre-planned breakaway jump.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[pchapman 262]

Quote

Quote

If you want to avoid that work, you can use your normal rig with an approved harness/belly reserve beneath it.

I don't know that that would meet the letter of the law.

It's an approved single harness dual parachute system that is required in the FAR's

Now I thought the "single harness" thing was just to distinguish it from a "double harness", i.e. a tandem rig to take 2 people. If that's right, then the FARs don't say anything about wearing two harnesses (or more). Just that if you are jumping, you need a minimum of one harness with 2 parachutes (plus all the appropriate certification.)

(I'm not arguing that I'm right; just discussing the issue.)

Quote

When you pre-plan the breakaway, that main doesn't count, so that leaves you with two single harness, single parachute systems.

All of us know that that makes sense. But do the FAA rules require that? Just wondering what rule or combination might require it.

FAA rules say something about what you have to exit the aircraft with. Would it perhaps be covered by statements about conducting parachute operations, which would presumably last until the landing? Then one could jettison part of ones single harness dual canopy system only in case of emergency, which is what people do when they have a mal.

But then, could one ever do an intentional cutaway on one's normal main to one's normal reserve, in one's normal rig? Even if one had an approved military harness with belly mount reserve on, legal for an emergency jump from a plane, one would still not land with a complete 'single harness dual parachute' system, as would be required for a non-emergency jump.

Still trying to understand what is technically legal.

[mjosparky 3]

It doesn’t you have to wear anything. It says that if you are wearing a “single harness” it will meet the following conditions. I wonder what is required if you are not wearing a "single harness" syste?

Sparky

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105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems.

No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows:

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals