Decision: Selling OR retiring an old reserve. (Raven Micro 150)

[mdrejhon 8]

Hello,

A few years ago, I posted about my concerns about my Raven Micro 150 reserve which is an old airfoil design, and is only safe at light wingloadings, and has a tendancy to stall easily when overloaded. Tiny flare band, with flare stalling at shoulder height.

I finally have a PD143R on its way, which will be packed soon. I have already jumped and landed standup a 143 square foot PD reserve, so I know I can trust this one. Recently, a fellow friend of mine broke a bone landing under an overloaded Raven Micro, and is out of skydiving for a few months.

The BIG ethical question now, is... Sell or Retire my Raven Micro 150?

Argument for Selling:
Many riggers have said it's very safe for someone at WL 1 or less with comfortable landings if lightly loaded. That it's just simply an older airfoil but not inherently dangerous unless overloaded beyond manufacturer recommendations. I'd sell with a MAJOR CAVEAT attached (maybe even ask a rigger to add a warning to the label tag, to the tune of "CAUTION: ONLY FOR PEOPLE 130 LBS OR LESS"). The buyer must hand-sign an agreement that he/she is 130lbs or less. (~150lbs geared up)

Argument for Retirement:
On the other hand, people still think it's safe to load any square parachute to WL 1.3 as long as they've jumped another square at 1.3. And if I sell, the future user might still sell it onwards to someone who may then overload this reserve and land it with a broken bone. The fact that I was even sold this rig with this Raven Micro, nobody along this chain really knew about the dangers of overloading a Raven Micro at the time. Many riggers still don't. Such a resale might happen again, with disastorous results. Bonfire ceremony time? eBay car cover?

[dragon2 0]

I see no reason to retire it as it is still a perfectly good reserve and people (except newbies) should KNOW not to overload it, an experienced jumper (say, 1000 jumps or more) can make their own decision, and everyone in between, well you can always refuse to sell it to a particular jumper. But there are plenty of jumpers 130lbs or lighter who need a reserve too

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[councilman24 36]

All of your concerns, in this post and previous ones, come from the reserve being OVERloaded. Yes, OVERloading anything is BAD. The reserve is fine. The users are the problem.

Hand the new owner a copy of the owners manual linked below. It clearly spells out the appropriate wing loading and the issues if it is overloaded. That's the sum of your responsibility.

BTW a 7 cell F-111 does stall very differently than you sabre 170.


http://www.parachutemanuals.com//index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=0&func=startdown&id=206

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[faulknerwn 37]

Its perfectly usable as long as people are used to flying 7-cells. I own multiple MicroRaven 120s and have 5-6 jumps on them. I load them at about 1.3 but I've stood up most of the landings (tho definitely biffed a couple too.)

But I have thousands of jumps on small 7-cells. I wouldn't sell it overloaded to a rookie, but if folks know what they're getting into its not a problem...

[mdrejhon 8]

As I thought -- most people tell me this is a fine reserve as long as it's used according to manufacturer specs. If anyone else has arguments about to retire this reserve, I'd still like to hear them.

Ultimately, I'll probably sell at an attractive low price with these major caveat and will repeatedly warn the buyer, let them know about these posts, and may require contacting his rigger/instructor directly to get their okay first.

Personally I did decide to keep the reserve for three years after knowing its potential dangers. I memorized the approximate tight flare band ('no lower than shoulder height') in case I ever used it unexpectedly, to avoid accidentally stalling this canopy. And immediate controllability tests/practice of this knowledge upon first use, given enough altitude. That info may very well have kept me safe. But I am still concerned about my friend who broke a bone landing this same beast -- and he has told me he is retiring his Raven Micro rather than selling it. (So in comes the PD143R and out goes the Raven Micro, for me at least.)

[billvon 2,435]

>Sell or Retire my Raven Micro 150?

Personally I would not sell it - because it will end up in the hands of someone who will overload it. That's just the nature of reserves, which get bought and sold almost as commodities. The woman you sell it to will use it with a wingloading of under 1:1, then she'll get pregnant and sell it to a guy who weighs 160 with a warning "oh, and the guy who sold it to me said to be careful. So you were warned."

It's sorta like my old Nova 150. A decently safe canopy when jumped in still air but absolutely treacherous in turbulence.

The only condition under which I would sell either canopy would be to a rigger or jumper I trusted 100% to take the appropriate care in jumping it and not resell it themselves.

[diablopilot 2]

It's your call as to what you can live with, but I'd jump that MR150 any day of the week. I have 3 rides on one and they were just fine. Before gear, I weigh 185.

Give ya $50 if no one else takes it.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

Personally I would not sell it

Thanks for making things a tad more difficult for me
But I totally agree with your reasons, and that's why I posted in the first place.

Roll the dice:
Dice lands on 1 - Bonfire ceremony
Dice lands on 2 - Car cover
Dice lands on 3 - Sell to a rigger for $50
Dice lands on 4 - Sharpie a BIG WARNING on the Raven Micro label
Dice lands on 5 - Keep as backup when I lose my PD143R in a cutaway.
Dice lands on 6 - Nude toga party

Deal?

(Seriously, it'll probably become a closet queen / desparation backup for now until I sell to someone rigger-league trustworthy, maybe a waiver signed with them claiming to have read ALL the dropzone.com threads I've ever written about the Raven Micro)

[Genn 0]

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Dice lands on 5 - Keep as backup when I lose my PD143R in a cutaway.

Maybe keep it as a back-up if/when you plan to put together a second rig?

Are you planning on jumping the PDR143 as a main? Last time I checked, you couldn't cutaway your reserve.

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

Are you planning on jumping the PDR143 as a main? Last time I checked, you couldn't cutaway your reserve.

I wanted to demo it as a main once, until I found out it didn't have a main bridle attachment -- some PD reserves have them and some don't. Then I could get incredibly unlucky and have to cut it away, only to permanently lose it. Would be a shame. I heard PD encourages going ahead and demoing once as a main before a reserve repack if it has a main bridle attachment... But no worries, I demoed a different PD143R already and land it with a nice quick 7-cell optimized flare, with a stand up...

*rolls dice again*

[pchapman 262]

I'd say sell it -- given that I'm sure you'll be upfront and honest about the canopy, you'll inform the buyer about the caveats, and you won't sell it to someone who doesn't know any better.

(Hey, I think I could go for a micro raven 120 just to play with if I found one cheap. Landing it can't be any scarier than the Paradactyl I was jumping this season. It could go in my intentional cutaway system so I wouldn't be forced to land it!)

[SStewart 13]

This is just silly....

Would you hesitate to sell a small high performance main just because someone might overload it and bounce? (better burn it, it might be dangerous)

There is nothing wrong with that reserve in the right hands and the right wing loading.

Onward and Upward!

[erdnarob 1]

Well said Scott

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[billvon 2,435]

>Would you hesitate to sell a small high performance main just because someone
>might overload it and bounce?

Of course I would.

A few years back I tried to sell a Crossfire 99. I got about a dozen replies. They all claimed they were 100% fine with that loading, had jumped it before etc. One guy's profile said he had 120 jumps and was loading a Spectre 170 about 1:1.

So I asked them all for a reference - just someone I could call to verify that yes, indeed, they had in the past jumped something like the Crossfire. No replies from most of them. One or two gave me references that I couldn't get in touch with. Finally one guy (ironically a guy from Russia who I could barely understand) gave me the name of a rigger in Alaska, who told me "yeah, he blew up his old Crossfire 99 and just wants a replacement." So I sold it to him.

For perhaps a better example, I have a Nova 150 that I won't sell to anyone (other than, say, a rigger who needed an intentional-cutaway canopy) because it's unsafe. I think jumpers do have a responsibility to other jumpers when it comes to selling potentially unsafe gear.

[dragon2 0]

But the nova is dangerous regardless of wingloading. Would you retire every older reserve? Of course, over here some still jump 5cell reserves without any problem, mostly for crw rigs or for any jumper without much cash.
One of my former team mates was real happy he had a 5cell as his camera helmet sheared off a few c/d lines on opening, ouch! He liked the Swift enough to have it relined!
I wouldn't sell or recommend a too-small reserve to anyone as they should be loaded lightly, but I really don't see why older stuff needs to be retired just because it's old and has it's limits. If it's airworthy and you stay within those limits, why the hell not? not everyone can afford a new PD-R

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[peek 20]

Quote

I wanted to demo it as a main once, until I found out it didn't have a main bridle attachment..

For those who might be reading this, you can jump a reserve without an attachment point if you pack it up as a direct-bag static line. I jumped my Swift Plus reserve once like that before packing it into my Softie pilot rig.

[billvon 2,435]

>But the nova is dangerous regardless of wingloading.

?? I put a few hundred jumps on it with no problems. On the flip side, roughly 1 out of every 2 Micro Raven landings I've seen over the past 10 years have resulted in at least a minor injury.

>Would you retire every older reserve?

Nope. Would you keep a reserve you could not land safely?

>not everyone can afford a new PD-R . . .

So get a used one! (Or a used Amigo, or Tempo, or pick your favorite.) There are a lot to choose from.

[dragon2 0]

Now tempos I've seen not landed ok, overloaded and not overloaded, so would never buy one myself. Are all micro ravens that bad? Or were these overloaded? Have not heard of any local problems with 'em and I'm sure we have quite a few around, in beginner rigs.

If I want to load up a reserve, there are only a few I'd consider, those being techno, pd-r, smart and optimum. Which I own and/or have jumped before at 1.3-1.4 (except for the optimum).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[faulknerwn 37]

I've got ~18 reserve rides these days.. Probably 8 on Tempo 120's, probably 6-7 standups (all soft landings.) Probably 6 on MicroRavens - 4 standups (other 2 soft). 2 on a PD 126, 1 on a PD 143 - 2/3 standups.
1 23' round - now that one hurt.

I own a bunch of rigs with various reserves. I'm comfortable landing any of them. I'd rather see someone load a PD reserve at 1.5 than a MicroRaven sure, but I'd rather see no one load a reserve that high...

[hookitt 0]

All but 2 of my reserve rides are on Micro-Ravens 135, 120, and 109. One was on a PD 106-r, 1 on a Tempo 120.

That said, I agree with you. Also, to this day I would not hesitate to jump a 120 or Larger Raven Series. Also, one can't compare my stats with someone with few jumps and doesn't know how to perform a very quick canopy control check on a small 7 cell.

One of the keys to landing a parachute is to actually do a canopy control check. The control range on a loaded Raven is very short. It takes experience to figure out how to use a short control range. It's SO Much easier to just cram on the brakes at around 8 feet and see what happens, and that's what many people do.

So, mdrejhon, feel safe sellig it to me for 51 Dollars. Since you mentioned sell it to a rigger, I just happen to have that rating as well to help solidify that decision

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[billvon 2,435]

> Are all micro ravens that bad?

Micro Ravens are not inherently bad any more than Novas are imherently bad.t However, Novas absolutely cannot be flown in turbulence; Micro Ravens absolutely cannot be loaded heavily and landed like a HP canopy.

In the days when light wingloadings were more common and everyone knew how to land a ragged-out PD150, then it wasn't much of an issue. Nowadays that is generally not true - which makes the Micro Raven, in my opinion, less than ideal for a typical jumper.

[mdrejhon 8]

Based on the scare stories about Raven Micro 150 and the fact I kept it for 3 years anyway, I had the quick canopy control check memorized every time I thought of almost potentially needing to use my reserve. (spinning linetwists I quickly recovered over a period of a few seconds, as well as jammed toggle). Although reserve fear shouldn't exist, it did come back when my friend hurt myself, I've eliminated that completely with the PD143R.

In all likelihood, I could potentially have just been fine -- the canopy check would probably reveal I need a good abbreviated flare over a few inches range rather than a full stroke.

That said, I agree that "on average" (risk per jump basis), Nova at 1.3WL sounds much safer than a Raven Micro at 1.3WL, based on what billvon said. Just distorted because Nova is a main and a Raven Micro is a reserve.

That said, bidding is now up to fifty-two currency units (I choose mint condition 1878 Morgan Dollars, please.), to someone 130lbs living in 1989. At which point, this now off-topic forum topic gets time-moved to the correct forsale usenet newsgroup (the web doesn't exist yet.) Ooops, the reserve serial number hasn't been made yet in its run -- it's a 1993.