brabzzz 0 #26 June 20, 2007 QuoteFor the record: I'm opposed to setting brakes in the field. Stowing toggles, yes. Setting brakes, no. ... Standing in the landing field while setting brakes sets you up for being hit by a lander. The counter argument would be the bozo that stows their toggles (without setting their brakes) and then packs/jumps it because they didn't notice.... How much longer does it take to set brakes? 20 seconds overall? It's not like the 'safe' alternative would be landing, grabbing all your shit and screaming BRPPP BRPPPP before belting across the landing area in the hope of avoiding being a landing hazard. That's knackering (and dangerous). Land, loosen straps, get the lid off, chill out, keep and eye out, sort gear, open up slider and sort brakes. What's the rush? Look around occasionally. If i get taken out by someone when i'm standing still, i'm not going to be chuffed... I'm all for whatever helps me do what i need to do. That's my routine and nothing so far seems to convince me it's a bad one...Packing is packing. If I do two steps in the field or back in the shed is irrelevant. As long as I do them. Could I be safer? Sure. I could wear the lid back to the hangar. But i'm willing to take the risk of not doing so. --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fugozzie 0 #27 June 20, 2007 Was flying with my breaks stowed waiting for traffic to clear. At 2k when I release my breaks I had a nice tension knot. Canopy started to spin. At that time I could not identify the issue and was at my hard deck so I chopped. The attached picture was taken after the main was recovered. I always stow my excess brake line now. JG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
za_skydiver 0 #28 June 20, 2007 QuoteWas flying with my breaks stowed waiting for traffic to clear. At 2k when I release my breaks I had a nice tension knot. Canopy started to spin. At that time I could not identify the issue and was at my hard deck so I chopped. The attached picture was taken after the main was recovered. I always stow my excess brake line now. JG Maybe the tension knots have something to do with twisted brake lines rather than the excess brake lines not being stowed. I have never stowed the excess brake lines on my canopy, or any other canopies i have packed . I usually untwist the brake lines on the first jump of the day and then about every five jumps.Some dream of flying, i live the dream... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fugozzie 0 #29 June 20, 2007 Could be, was the excess that completed the knot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #30 June 20, 2007 I've caught my hand (when wearing gloves) in excess brake line that I had stowed, but only 1/2 assedly. As a packer, I never leave the excess loose because of that and the chance of knotting. The only reason not to stow excess is laziness. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
za_skydiver 0 #31 June 20, 2007 Quote I've caught my hand (when wearing gloves) in excess brake line that I had stowed, but only 1/2 assedly. I don't wear gloves, except in the middle of winter when i can get frost bite. Quote As a packer, I never leave the excess loose because of that and the chance of knotting The only reason not to stow excess is laziness. That, and it takes longer. Edit to add: Regular untwisting of the brake lines should prevent tension knots, and in my honest opinion, whether the lines' excess is stowed or not, you will get a tension knot if you don't untwist your lines...Some dream of flying, i live the dream... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #32 June 20, 2007 Quote That, and it takes longer. Edit to add: Regular untwisting of the brake lines should prevent tension knots, and in my honest opinion, whether the lines' excess is stowed or not, you will get a tension knot if you don't untwist your lines... Not wanting to take the time is laziness Besides the glove thing, the possibility of knot thing (my husband had that one happen, no his brake lines were not twisted), there is also the chance of the loop of brake line snagging on something on it's way out of the container. Lazy brake stowing and untacked slinks are two of my pet peeves as a packer... both are easy to do and may prevent a problem, so why not do it? I agree with you about twisty brake lines though... they should be done every few jumps, and people who pay packers and never pack themselves are really taking their chances on this one... packers don't have time to maintain gear as well as pack it! Though I admit, I do untwist the lines, stow the excess brakes for the lazy people that don't do it to begin with, replace closing loops, etc. Just don't pass that around though or I'll be too busy packing to jump! Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #33 June 20, 2007 QuoteGood and stable procedures and multiple checkpoints are more important than having everything in a single sitting. Evidently you think one precludes the other? QuoteIf you do and check twice the most important things like kill-line, slider kill-line and brakes it can not be wrong. Its quite hard to miss it even you got some distraction. Not as hard as you might think. And doing it all at the same time, in one sitting, is less likely to miss something that was done part now, part later. Good practices. Some have developed habits. That doesn't make them good habits.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #34 June 21, 2007 Quote The counter argument would be the bozo that stows their toggles (without setting their brakes) and then packs/jumps it because they didn't notice.... Not a counter-argument. A bozo is a bozo is bozo regardless of where he is. I guess you assume that if it's not done in the field it won'tbe don at all? crazy] Quote How much longer does it take to set brakes? 20 seconds overall? It's not like the 'safe' alternative would be landing, grabbing all your shit and screaming BRPPP BRPPPP before belting across the landing area in the hope of avoiding being a landing hazard. That's knackering (and dangerous). Typical that hysterics are used for argumentive purposes. Quote Land, loosen straps, get the lid off, chill out, keep and eye out, sort gear, open up slider and sort brakes. What's the rush? Did I mention rush? I'm sorry. I missed that part of my tinking. Quote If i get taken out by someone when i'm standing still, i'm not going to be chuffed... No, you'll just likely be hurt. Quote I'm all for whatever helps me do what i need to do. That's my routine and nothing so far seems to convince me it's a bad one... Having a habit does not make it a good one. Quote Packing is packing. If I do two steps in the field or back in the shed is irrelevant. Sorry you don't see the relevancy Quote As long as I do them. Agreed Quote Could I be safer? Sure. I could wear the lid back to the hangar. But i'm willing to take the risk of not doing so. I could tkae this out of context and use it against you to put you on the defensive...but I won't..I'll just demonstrate: "Could I be safer? Sure...But i'm willing to take the risk of not doing so." My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Booster_MPS 0 #35 June 21, 2007 I stow my brakes quickly in the field and set them as a part of my pack job. I firmly believe that these things should be done in a controlled environment where you can focus on the task and not get distracted - this is not in the LZ. I stow my brakes as part of my riser check for a step through inside. In general I think it is good to focus on important tasks like this. As a matter of habit I do not stop something that I started: A gear check Putting on my rig including straps Any part of the pack job Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brabzzz 0 #36 June 21, 2007 Quote Not a counter-argument. A bozo is a bozo is bozo regardless of where he is. I guess you assume that if it's not done in the field it won'tbe don at all? crazy] Hmmm, are you refering to the "bozos setting brakes with their backs to the landing pattern, completely oblivious to the world around them"? Or different ones? "Too many instances of people forgetting to set both brakes out there after being distracted by landers." - they were the ones, weren't they? Bozos are bozos. Most of us are capable of keeping an eye out whilst doing a 20 second task we've done hundreds of times before. It's not rocket science, it's packing a main. 1 location, 2 locations, one the bus back, routine or not, coffee midway or all in one sitting. Who cares. As long as you're capable of packing consistently, it matters not. If it does and someone needs a set in stone optimised routine (there was a thread about some needing a checklist due to learning difficulties), that's cool too. Horses for courses mate. Quote Typical that hysterics are used for argumentive purposes. Comic, eh? Quote Did I mention rush? I'm sorry. I missed that part of my tinking. Well, you implied it by saying someone standing around setting brakes is a landing hazard...cos they are one whether they're looking around or not...hyst by being there. So we agree it's an acceptable (miniscule) increase in risk to be standing around a bit by not rushing? Quote No, you'll just likely be hurt. Indeed. Gotta keep an eye out and be predictable once landed. Quote Having a habit does not make it a good one. True, we're not machines. We don't need to do stuff in the same order. It clearly works for me, and i'm happy with that. Quote I could tkae this out of context and use it against you to put you on the defensive...but I won't..I'll just demonstrate: "Could I be safer? Sure...But i'm willing to take the risk of not doing so." Do you wear yours back? Maybe we need another poll. I reckon most people don't... As you say, taken out of context, it's a bad thing. Sure, we could all be safer. We could sit on our asses on the sofa wearing helmets. Just in case. By not wearing the lid all the way back, i'm increasing the risk to myself (and only to myself) acceptably, trading it off for comfort. Most of us do. These could be the opening salvos of a pointless debate. Some like flightline checks, some don't. Some "test-peel" their pads before every jump, others make double sure the velcro is mated. There seem to be 2 camps on RSLs, AADs, swoopers...everything. Are either of us right in this case? One? Both? None? Ultimately who cares, people can make their own mind up. --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #37 June 21, 2007 I don't set my brakes on landing, but I do stow them (so they don't tangle or twist more) and reset my slider. I always have a few seconds waiting for teammates to walk in with. 0 - However, while packing, I have a point where I look at the slider and ensure that it completely reset. It isn't always, and I can make the correction then. (lesson is doing stuff in the field can't always be done right - so you need to double check that part anyway during the pack. brabzzz likely has a point in the pack where he checks his brake setting - like eyeball while laying out that the toggle is through the eyelet and below the ring - what's wrong with that?) 1 - most important is to have a repeatable consistent process regardless of where it is or if it's split up. (If brabzzz is doing the same thing, it would be worse to change his non-ideal habit if he's done it for 100 pack jobs). 2 - splitting it up isn't ideal, but if you eyeball those areas while 'really' packing as a part of your normal process it shouldn't hurt. 3 - I wouldn't ask someone to pack for me that does critical steps outside of the packing area. It's one reason I don't use packers, if they don't do the TOTAL packjob all at one time, they might miss something critical. I wouldn't bust on brabzzz, at least he has a habit (I wouldn't call it a bad habit, just not optimal). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #38 June 21, 2007 Quote I wouldn't ask someone to pack for me that does critical steps outside of the packing area. It's one reason I don't use packers, if they don't do the TOTAL packjob all at one time, they might miss something critical. Hmm, I've never seen a packer drag a rig out to the landing area to set the brakes Our DZ rules are that experienced jumpers set brakes, uncollapse slider. Personally I double check brakes at least twice in the course of packing (when I first start with the rig and again just prior to putting bag in the container). It amazes me how many experienced jumpers manage to come up with creative ways to stow brakes. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #39 June 21, 2007 Quote Hmm, I've never seen a packer drag a rig out to the landing area to set the brakes Our DZ rules are that experienced jumpers set brakes, uncollapse slider. Personally I double check brakes funny - your second paragraph is what I'm talking about. Mixing in one person setting brakes (or not if they forget), and a VERY repeated process of not setting brakes (because one expects the jumper to do it), just doesn't seem like a good practice to me. I'm glad you double check the brakes and the slider. I'm even happier a handful of people can spell 'brakes' Quote It amazes me how many experienced jumpers manage to come up with creative ways to stow brakes. And yet that's part of your process on a rig that goes out with your pack job on it...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #40 June 21, 2007 OKMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #41 June 21, 2007 Not hammering you rehmwa...just responding in general terms to everyone. Quote...(lesson is doing stuff in the field can't always be done right - so you need to double check that part anyway during the pack). Correcto mundo. So why stand there in the landing area focusing on setting your brakes with all kinds of canopy pilots coming at you when you're going to redo/check everything in the packing area? Quote..it would be worse to change his non-ideal habit if he's done it for 100 pack jobs). I don't agree. In all walks of life, learning, changing and progressing is a good thing. For me, I try not to make the same mistakes over and over again. I offer ultimate respect for those past jumpers who lived, learned, changed, tried and died for the relative safety we enjoy today. Quote..splitting it up isn't ideal, Again, correcto mundo. So why not strive to learn and do better? Quote...if they don't do the TOTAL packjob all at one time, they might miss something critical. Bingo! the point of it all! Well, that and being busy and not paying attention in the landing area. Quote...at least he has a habit (I wouldn't call it a bad habit, just not optimal). So rather than seek something better, we'll just continue to be so-so, middle-of-the-road, It-can't-be bad-because-it-hasn't-bitten-me-yet. Some are "entitled" to that, I suppose. To paraphrase someone else's sig line: "Just because you didn't get hurt doesn't mean it was a good idea."My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauraliscious 0 #42 June 21, 2007 Sorry if this has already been asked, but what would happen if you jump without setting the brakes? I mean, stowing your toggles, but not setting the brakes? Would the canopy just be flying faster on opening? Would the opening be harder? Just curious... Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #43 June 21, 2007 Quote And yet that's part of your process on a rig that goes out with your pack job on it...... Do you really think I leave the brakes stowed the 'creative' ways? Hardly. I point it out to the jumper if they are available and show them how to do it properly. And I always fix it. Plus stow the excess for the jumpers that are too lazy to do so. My 'very repeated process' includes checking brakes on every rig. No exceptions. DZ policy does save me significant time every day since 99% of the time brakes are set properly. My personal policy of brakes getting checked twice on every pack job ensures that it is done properly. It's the best of both worlds. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #44 June 22, 2007 Quote ....I point it out to the jumper if they are available and show them how to do it properly. And I always fix it. Plus stow the excess for the jumpers that are too lazy to do so. My personal policy of brakes getting checked twice on every pack job ensures that it is done properly. It's the best of both worlds. Didn't I tell you once before that you were wonderful? My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #45 June 22, 2007 I stow my toggles without ever dropping them after landing, so I never really get twists in the brakelines. I check every now and then, but not even every weekend. I used to, but it really wasn't necessary. If for whatever reason I drop my toggles in flight, I do check them before setting the brakes. Setting the brakes may happen on the field waiting for the van, sometimes in the van, sometimes in the hangar, but part of the packing process is checking they're set. I don't stow the slack. I have about a foot of half brake, and if I stow it, I can't get the slider over it. So I'm very careful with grabbing the toggles and releasing the brakes after opening. It's a trade-off, I know that. It's not laziness. There are more things about my jumping I wouldn't recommend to just anyone, and steps taken at one point because of other steps at another point. I'm comfortable with my way of doing things.Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #46 June 22, 2007 Quote Didn't I tell you once before that you were wonderful? I think so. But you can't really decide that until you've seen me pack, and unless you were lurking the tandem tent in Dublin, you missed that particular show Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #47 June 22, 2007 what are these brakes you speak of? i typically land with my brakes stowed already because it saves me on packing time.Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kimblair13 0 #48 June 22, 2007 Wow! I never thought of that. I like to land on rears anyway, so I guess I really don't need those things afterall. Maybe I could get a rigger to stitch those bad boys on so they won't come out on accident, wait, I am a rigger.... Pro thwoopers are tho thmart! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #49 June 22, 2007 he he he Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #50 June 22, 2007 Why waste time with stitching when you could solve the problem with duct tape!!! Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
