henryvillar 0 #1 August 28, 2006 I've recently bought myself new gear with a Sabre2 170. Obviously I dont have much experience, but on the jumps I've made with it I've come across the same problem every time. I don't get hard openings, but the end-cells are always collapsed. It usually needs a lot of flare to open them up. Is there anything I can do while packing that will help reduce this problem I worry about having one side collapsed resulting in a turn while trying to get out of a twist. Any suggestions are welcome. The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #2 August 28, 2006 Try to use search! You are not alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 August 28, 2006 Do a search, its been discussed more then a couple of times. Also, try popping your rear risers, its worked well on Sabre2s with me. Sabre1, too hard...Sabre2, too soft. Someday PD will get it "right." --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #4 August 28, 2006 End cell closure is usually a sign of a soft opening. So what's the problem? A simple flight control check should clear it right up. You do perform a flight control check right? And honestly, simply unstowing the brakes and holding it for a second should clear it up. I just don't see what the "problem" is..."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #5 August 28, 2006 QuoteI've recently bought myself new gear with a Sabre2 170. Obviously I dont have much experience, but on the jumps I've made with it I've come across the same problem every time. I don't get hard openings, but the end-cells are always collapsed. It usually needs a lot of flare to open them up. Is there anything I can do while packing that will help reduce this problem I worry about having one side collapsed resulting in a turn while trying to get out of a twist. Any suggestions are welcome. spectra can go out of trim in as low as 200 jumps, I'd get a rigger to check the trim.... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wuffo 1 #6 August 28, 2006 QuoteSabre1, too hard...Sabre2, too soft I think there are a lot of people who would not agree with that description of their Sabre2 openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #7 August 28, 2006 Here's a video from Performance Designs, specifically about Sabre2 end cell closure. Enjoy http://www.performancedesigns.com/canopyinfo.asp Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeremy556 0 #8 August 28, 2006 I pull on the rear risers a bit just after opening while looking around for traffic before collapsing slider and releasing brakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
porterhouse 0 #9 August 28, 2006 As soon as the canopy is fully inflated, go softly to your rear risers to get the canopy level and stable. Do NOT touch your risers until AFTER the canopy is fully inflated. (Doing so can give uneven inputs to during opening, which can really screw things up.) After you have used the rears to get stable and level...THEN unstow your toggles. If you unstow your toggles unevenly before you get both end cells inflated and stable, it can put you into a WICKED spin very quickly (I learned that one from experience.) Also, the packers at your DZ are usually an oasis of knowledge when it comes to opening problems. Buy them a beer at the end of the day and then ask them for advice Blues.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #10 August 28, 2006 QuoteIf you unstow your toggles unevenly before you get both end cells inflated and stable, it can put you into a WICKED spin very quickly (I learned that one from experience.) Unstowing the toggels unevenly is the core of that problem."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
porterhouse 0 #11 August 28, 2006 True, but if you unstow the toggles unevenly, before both end cells are inflated it can magnify the spin. If one end cell (say the right) is still deflated, the canopy will open in a right handed turn coupled by a slight downward pitch. If you try to correct the problem by unstowing your toggles to flare, and you accidentally unstow the right toggle a little bit before the left toggle, you'll be put into a much faster right handed spin. If you're in a fast spin like that, and you try to correct too much with a counter toggle, line twists could result. Like I said, I made that mistake once. I fly a conservatively loading Sabre2. When what I described above happened to me, it put me into an extremely fast, tight and disorienting spin. Since then, I've always gotten stable on rears first and THEN unstowed my toggles. No more problems since then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #12 August 28, 2006 Quote Sabre1, too hard...Sabre2, too soft. Not my Sabre1 120....I'm starting to like her. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MrBrant 0 #13 August 28, 2006 Personal experience only: With my pilot (another slower opening canopy), I find that if I don't do the full PRO pack (flaking the cells inside the packjob), it opens waaaay too slow, and I get collaped end cells. With flaking the end cells, I get nice, consistant 500 foot openings and no collapsed end cells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jeremy556 0 #14 August 28, 2006 Yea, that's what I do. Once the canopy is open with a couple of closed end cells, I pull on the rear risers which causes them to inflate, then I unstow brakes after dealing with the slider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bill6870 3 #15 August 29, 2006 I have about 300 jumps on a Sabre 1 190 and have never had a hard opening. A friend of mine put 300 jumps on a Sabre 2 190 and had never had a hard opening. Then he had an opening so hard that it broke his back, quess what, he had closed end cells on that jump. He sent the canopy to PD and they relined it and inspected it and not only said it was airworthy but said it was in exellent condition. I jumped it on a hop and pop and it snivelled so much that I thought I was going to have to chop, the next jump I took it to terminal and it opened so hard that it cracked a rib, guess what, I had closed end cells. He sent it back to PD and they replaced it with a new custom Spectre at no charge. PD is a great company that puts out great products. Just keep in mind that every canopy is an individual, even if it is the same size and model that it has it's own personality. ANY canopy from ANY manufacturer can hurt you at ANY time. Sabre 1 canopies opened brisk because that was what was expected at the time they were designed. Sabre 2 canopies slowed the opening and fly great (the one that broke my rib flew and flared great). I have 1300 jumps and am a tandem instructor, I have been in the sport for 20 years and have packed many parachutes, when I packed the Sabre 2 I knew the history and packed it with that in mind. As the label says any parachute that is manufactured, packed, maintained, and used properly can and will fail. Blue Skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites henryvillar 0 #16 August 29, 2006 Ofcourse I perform flight control checks. My main concern is what will happen if the canopy is turning due to collased end-cells while i'm trying to get twisted lines untwisted. Pulling the toggles will inflate the cells, and I've only had line twists once before (presumabely due to bad body position during opening), but I imagine the combination of collapsed end-cells with twists could easily lead to a reserve ride if the canopy turns in the wrong direction. How likely this is, I dont know. Edited to add: Before anybody says anything... I dont unstow brakes before clearing twists. The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #17 August 29, 2006 You could just sell me that Sabre2 170 and buy yourself some other canopy... -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites genitor 0 #18 August 29, 2006 It's amazing how many people I hear complain about closed end cells. It's especially funny when someone complains to their packer about it, as if they just packed the thing with 5 lineovers! Either wait for a couple of seconds to let it finish inflating, or pop the breaks and coerce it just a little bit. In any event thank your canopy for being so nice to you, and worry about more important matters! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #19 August 29, 2006 QuoteIt's amazing how many people I hear complain about closed end cells. It's especially funny when someone complains to their packer about it, as if they just packed the thing with 5 lineovers! Either wait for a couple of seconds to let it finish inflating, or pop the breaks and coerce it just a little bit. In any event thank your canopy for being so nice to you, and worry about more important matters! Ditto. If closed end cells and slight heading issues on opening are your biggest worries, then there isn't really anything to complain about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites za_skydiver 0 #20 August 29, 2006 QuoteQuote Sabre1, too hard...Sabre2, too soft. Not my Sabre1 120....I'm starting to like her. I have no problems with my Sabre1 135 either. Some dream of flying, i live the dream... 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MrBrant 0 #13 August 28, 2006 Personal experience only: With my pilot (another slower opening canopy), I find that if I don't do the full PRO pack (flaking the cells inside the packjob), it opens waaaay too slow, and I get collaped end cells. With flaking the end cells, I get nice, consistant 500 foot openings and no collapsed end cells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeremy556 0 #14 August 28, 2006 Yea, that's what I do. Once the canopy is open with a couple of closed end cells, I pull on the rear risers which causes them to inflate, then I unstow brakes after dealing with the slider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bill6870 3 #15 August 29, 2006 I have about 300 jumps on a Sabre 1 190 and have never had a hard opening. A friend of mine put 300 jumps on a Sabre 2 190 and had never had a hard opening. Then he had an opening so hard that it broke his back, quess what, he had closed end cells on that jump. He sent the canopy to PD and they relined it and inspected it and not only said it was airworthy but said it was in exellent condition. I jumped it on a hop and pop and it snivelled so much that I thought I was going to have to chop, the next jump I took it to terminal and it opened so hard that it cracked a rib, guess what, I had closed end cells. He sent it back to PD and they replaced it with a new custom Spectre at no charge. PD is a great company that puts out great products. Just keep in mind that every canopy is an individual, even if it is the same size and model that it has it's own personality. ANY canopy from ANY manufacturer can hurt you at ANY time. Sabre 1 canopies opened brisk because that was what was expected at the time they were designed. Sabre 2 canopies slowed the opening and fly great (the one that broke my rib flew and flared great). I have 1300 jumps and am a tandem instructor, I have been in the sport for 20 years and have packed many parachutes, when I packed the Sabre 2 I knew the history and packed it with that in mind. As the label says any parachute that is manufactured, packed, maintained, and used properly can and will fail. Blue Skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
henryvillar 0 #16 August 29, 2006 Ofcourse I perform flight control checks. My main concern is what will happen if the canopy is turning due to collased end-cells while i'm trying to get twisted lines untwisted. Pulling the toggles will inflate the cells, and I've only had line twists once before (presumabely due to bad body position during opening), but I imagine the combination of collapsed end-cells with twists could easily lead to a reserve ride if the canopy turns in the wrong direction. How likely this is, I dont know. Edited to add: Before anybody says anything... I dont unstow brakes before clearing twists. The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of my employer, not necessarily mine, and probably not necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #17 August 29, 2006 You could just sell me that Sabre2 170 and buy yourself some other canopy... -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genitor 0 #18 August 29, 2006 It's amazing how many people I hear complain about closed end cells. It's especially funny when someone complains to their packer about it, as if they just packed the thing with 5 lineovers! Either wait for a couple of seconds to let it finish inflating, or pop the breaks and coerce it just a little bit. In any event thank your canopy for being so nice to you, and worry about more important matters! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #19 August 29, 2006 QuoteIt's amazing how many people I hear complain about closed end cells. It's especially funny when someone complains to their packer about it, as if they just packed the thing with 5 lineovers! Either wait for a couple of seconds to let it finish inflating, or pop the breaks and coerce it just a little bit. In any event thank your canopy for being so nice to you, and worry about more important matters! Ditto. If closed end cells and slight heading issues on opening are your biggest worries, then there isn't really anything to complain about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
za_skydiver 0 #20 August 29, 2006 QuoteQuote Sabre1, too hard...Sabre2, too soft. Not my Sabre1 120....I'm starting to like her. I have no problems with my Sabre1 135 either. Some dream of flying, i live the dream... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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