Are there any veterinarians in the house???

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Hi.

I was wondering if there are any veterinarians in the house who can give me some advice...

I am basically a worried sick mother of a 15 month old miniature schnauzer (Delilah). Our vet thinks she has some kind of encephalitis. It started around July 24th when she would run but arc to the left instead of straight. Within hours it turned into her head tightly winding to the left almost as if she was trying to touch her nose to her ribcage to circling uncontrollably to the left, whincing until she would fall over.

I was on vacation in Hawaii at the time this all started, my stepdad called me and told me what was going on, took her to the vet and she was hospitalized there for eight days. The vet said it would be a slow recovery and after seeing her the day I got back and brought her home she would mostly sleep. She could not move by herself, still head pulling to the left, and had nystagmus in her left eye which pulled left and downward.

It has been three weeks almost since the onset of this and she seems to be regaining her strength because she can push her upper body up now with the strength of her front legs. I do not know if it is improvement or not, the vet is closed today but today she started pushing her upper body up and torquing it to the left until she is top heavy and collapses to the ground often followed by a roll. If I don't stop her she will continue to do this until she tires herself out. If I support her weight while she tries to stand, she will continue to circle to the left and everything seems to pull to the center of her body on her left side including her eye and tail.

I have been doing tons of research on the Internet and although I have found what I think may be some answers, I was wondering if anyone has had this happen to their pet and/or if any vets can help me out with some advice, prognosis, things to do, things not to do, anything...

I want her to get better right now more than anything and this seems much more difficult than caring for my daughter when she was a baby. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thank you...

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[normiss 622]

I gotta stop clicking through these threads thinking military...

I sure hope your puppers gets better though!

[freefallfreak 0]

Jen,
If you need info I can give you the phone number of a dear friend who breeds Miniture Schnauzers. She's been doing this for about 39 years and I've known her for most of that time. There is a lot of info she may be able to help you with as she is a real Schnauzer person and loves her dogs to death. Let me know if you still need help or info with this and I'll pm you her number. Hey, we little dog people have to stick together, lol. I have a solid white 18 week old puppy and he is really cool.

TripleF

"Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up."

[ACMESkydiver 0]

I just got off the phone with my friend whose whole family owns, shows and trains Min Schnauzers. I thought she might have some ideas for ya.

She said she hadn't ever seen that, and the only thing she could think of that might cause a dog to turn in that manner would be an inner ear issue, but she said that your vet probably already checked for that.

Good luck.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Thank you Normiss and ACMEskydiver (oops and Freefallfreak too)... Although I wish this was an inner ear issue, I don't believe it is. The vet says her signs are encephalitis-like which is an inflammation of the brain and that it is likely that there is a lesion to her third cranial nerve. I think the third cranial nerve controls voluntary eye movement and there seems to be many types of encephalitis, i.e. West Nile Virus, East Nile, Equine, St. Louis, etc. I think we tested for West Nile and it came back negative. We dosed her with a week's worth of antibiotics (Doxycycline) and also gave her that in combination with Niacinimide, Clindamyacin and those are now gone. The only thing we are still administering is Meclazine which is supposed to be for dizziness. I also have to give her sub-cutaneous fluids via the needle which I hate, I am not a vet but it has to be done. Thanks for the PMs and those who have checked with others. Any other advice from vets or those with this experience, please feel free to PM or chime in.

Thanks again!

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[skydivellama 0]

I'm a vet student, not a vet, so I probably don't have anything to add that your vet wouldn't have checked on. The two general things I can think of that would cause this sort of thing are damage to the vestibular system (which is in the inner ear) or damage to one or more cranial nerves (which could include damage outside of the brain or in the brain itself). Has your vet done a full neurological exam? This involves a number of simple tests for different reflexes, etc. to see which nervous pathways are affected.

I don't know what sort of treatment options there would be for an inner ear problem, but the fact that she has nystagmus makes me think it's probably her nervous system and not her ear. For a nervous system problem, encephalitis could certainly be a cause, as could some sort of head trauma or even an abnormal growth/tumor. Really the only way to check for encephalitis that I can think of would be a spinal tap, which is a pretty major procedure for a dog since she would have to be anesthetized. Also I'm not sure what good it would do since I think most encephalitis is viral and there's not really any way to treat that, she just has to fight off the infection. Likewise with a tumor, the only real way to diagnose that would be with a CT scan or something, which most vets aren't equipped to do and would be incredibly expensive.

Your vet is almost certainly right that your puppy will have a slow recovery; the brain and nervous system do often have the ability to repair themselves or form new pathways after some sort of damage, but it takes a long time. I would keep her as quiet as possible and just be patient, and talk to your vet about doing more diagnostic tests if she doesn't improve.

I'm sorry this probably hasn't been very helpful, I'm at a frustrating stage in my vet education where I feel like I'm starting to understand what causes certain problems, but I don't yet know anything about how to fix them! Please let me know if you have any specific questions you want me to ask my neurophysiology professor. I know how worried you must be and I really hope Delilah gets better over time. Mini Schnauzers are such wonderful dogs. You and she are both in my thoughts.

ETA: Just saw your second post and wanted to add, try not to feel guilty having to stick her with a needle to give her the fluids, you are helping her immensely by doing so! Good luck to you and her.

"Perhaps she saw before her a lifetime of walking on the ruined earth and chose instead a single moment in the air." -Carolyn Parkhurst

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Wow Skydivellama thank you for your time and kind words. You sound like a pretty on top of it vet student. I did do some research on the vestibular system and I myself kept questioning that to our vet. Yes, this is a very trying time, I could not be getting through this alone and am grateful once again to my parents for helping me through this rough time.

Another thing that frustrates me is I of course want an answer as to "how" my dog got like this. All I keep finding are things about mosquitos/tick borne transmission or transmission through rabid animals or infected bats, mice, etc. I am thinking at this stage that although I wish it were bacterial, after three weeks and 8 days of antibiotics, her response to them should have nearly cured her by now.

I take it a day at a time but it is hard to tell if she is getting better. Should I encourage her to get up even if she is running in tight circles? Is it bad for her to continue to do this? Any ideas on recovery time, cause, fatality rates ... I have spent over a grand just this far and if I could afford it I would send her to the University and have the MRI, catscan and EEG done but I could hardly afford the vet bill as it is.

I do not mind the heartache, time commitment or money involved if my puppy comes back to her normal self. It will all be worth it. However, it will be devastating if she does not come back. My guess is that if she has made it this far she hopefully won't die, but I also have no idea if this is going to change her personality, intelligence, etc. She has been a remarkable dog, can do at least a dozen complex tricks and has had the personality of a brilliant animal. I don't know my chances of her recovering that. Thanks for your insight.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[Krip 2]

Hi

Have you or your vet considered checking with the Vet school at MU?(columbia missouri). It's only a few hr's away and they might (already have the answer) or be interested in helping you find out whats causing the little guy's problem.

R.I.P.

[skydivellama 0]

I so wish I could give you more information to go on, but I honestly have no idea about recovery times for this sort of thing. I can say that it still might have been bacterial even if the antibiotics don't seem to have had much effect-- they may have killed the infection and thus prevented it from causing even worse damage. No matter what caused the initial damage it will probably take a long time to see much recovery. As for how long, or how much recovery is possible, I'm afraid I have no idea.

Obviously you should check this with your vet, but my instincts would be to keep her quiet and not allow her to keep circling-- I would imagine the circling tires her out physically which is not what she needs at this point, and she's probably well aware that something is wrong and gets frustrated not being able to move like she's used to. I feel that if you can keep her mainly lying down and still so that the world seems normal, she'll be in a better state of mind which is definitely better for recovery. Of course she'll have to get up sometimes if only so you can see how she's progressing, but I would try to limit that.

I wish I could tell you something more...

"Perhaps she saw before her a lifetime of walking on the ruined earth and chose instead a single moment in the air." -Carolyn Parkhurst

[maadmax 0]

Hi I am a Vet and see this condition often, although not usually as severe as you have described. Has your Vet tried Prednisalone? This condition is usually caused by an inflammation of a cranial nerve located next to the inner ear. This area of the brain controls balance and eye movement. Seeing a specialist would be good idea. Good Luck!!

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Thanks for the heads up MaadMax, after reading your post I called our vet and asked him about the Prednisalone. He did try a shot of some type of corticosteriod (cannot remember the name of it) her first day in the hospital and didn't seem to think it did much good and he also mentioned concerns with treating with steroids during the time of infection. But he said that now (it has been almost 3 weeks since the onset of symptoms) he thinks the infection has most likely run it's course and that we can try that or Prednisone which I am guessing is pretty silimar and just to stop treatment with it if things begin to go backwards. I am going to pick those meds up tomorrow and hopefully that will contribute to her healing fster. Initially he spoke of a lesion to the third cranial nerve and you are speaking about a lesion to a cranial nerve in the inner ear. I am still not clear on what lesions and cranial nerves are and what they do, I guess I have more reading to do. Whatever it is, it is definitely affecting her vestibular system. Can you tell me Doc what your experience has been as far as recovery rates from this kind of infection and what the causes have been? She seems to be SLOWLY regaining strength and it seems like today her circles when she runs are not quite as tight as they were. She seems to be working at ways to get up on her own although she is still highly uncoordinated ... I know it will take time and that is fine, but I worry about the type of damage done and if it is reversable.

Thanks.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[skydivellama 0]

Hi, still don't have anything to add on recovery times, but I can explain some of the vocabulary if that would be helpful to you.

"Lesion" is a very broad term that refers to any sort of damage to or loss of function of a tissue; the word doesn't specify anything about what caused the damage, just that damage has occured for some reason (infection, trauma, cancer, anything).

The cranial nerves are the 12 pairs of nerves that come directly out of the brain and exit through openings in the skull; they each have very specific functions, mostly in the head and neck region. The nerve near the inner ear is the eight cranial nerve, aka the vestibulocochlear nerve, which as Maadmax says controls balance. According to one of my textbooks damage to this nerve can also cause nystagmus (not sure why). The third cranial nerve that you've been hearing about controls voluntary eye movement so can also cause nystagmus when damaged, but I can't see how that would cause her other movement symptoms.

I hope that's helpful to you. It's good to hear she seems to be getting stronger and I hope the anti-inflammatories help!

"Perhaps she saw before her a lifetime of walking on the ruined earth and chose instead a single moment in the air." -Carolyn Parkhurst

[maadmax 0]

Hi Again,
The usual recovery time if from 5 to 7 days with 100% return to normal once the inflammation of the 8th cranial nerve(ie Vestibular Nerve) is resolved. Prednisalone is the drug of choice for this. I doubt that Delilah has encephalitis, her symptoms would have been more numerous and severe. The 3rd cranial nerve is usually not involved in this syndrome. Most of the time the cause remains unknown. The only complication would be if the brainstem including the hypothalamus was involved. In this case recovery would be less likely but this condition is rare.
If you get good initial response once you start treating with prednisalone everything should be fine.
Good luck and let me know how things turn out.

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

I'm not sure if I also mentioned that she generally sleeps about 18-20 hours a day. Today was the first time she ate a few pieces of soft kibble by herself. It was only a couple bites but it was improvement over having to pry her mouth open to feed her every bite. It is almost like something tight has a hold of her. I see her trying to fight it but it has control. She seemed to be regaining control of her eye a bit more but it still occassionally pulls slightly to the left. I actually got out of the house today for a change so I wasn't with her a lot today but feeding her is getting a little easier, it seems like she can open her mouth with more ease now. She also seems more respondent to hearing my parent's dogs barking like she wants to get up and join them like her old self and is trying very hard to get up by herself. Still a long way away from where she was before this all happened though.

I don't care though, I am not giving up on her no matter how hard it is, the doctor said the timeline milestones are 24 hours, then 72, then 2 weeks, then 6 weeks. We are at about 3 weeks and there has been much improvement but of course I would like to see much more.

Thanks again and I will keep you posted on how the drugs affect her. Do you think it is the right time to administer them? Too late, too early?

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."