High performance canopies versus high performance skydivers

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"High performance canopies versus high performance skydivers"

Another thread has caused me to bring this up.

We call a number of canopies on the market "high performance". (Some might argue that nearly any canopy made from zero porosity fabric is high performance.)

Yet many novice jumpers are purchasing high performance canopies and then wondering why they are having questionable openings and having a difficult time landing them.

I would think that the solution to a number of these problems would to be purchase "medium performance" canopies or canopies (according to whatever source defines them as that) designed specifically for novices, (or perhaps for older jumpers wanting a zero porosity fabric canopy without the speed, etc.)

1. If one purchases a "high performance" canopy, is it not reasonable to expect them to be a "high performance skydiver"?

2. Are these people simply being talked into it by manufacturers or experienced jumpers they know?

3. Or are they falling for the concept that newer designs are neccesarily better for them regardless of their experience?

[waltappel 1]

I think it primarily comes from what low-timers see and hear at the DZ. Kinda like the whole downsizing thing. For most people, downsizing is a joke. They can't fly what they already have.

Walt

[Remster 24]

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1. If one purchases a "high performance" canopy, is it not reasonable to expect them to be a "high performance skydiver"?

2. Are these people simply being talked into it by manufacturers or experienced jumpers they know?

3. Or are they falling for the concept that newer designs are neccesarily better for them regardless of their experience?

I think you forgot a big reason:

4. Or is it that they oversetimate their own skills and experience while underestimating the level of control that these wings require.

Remster

[peek 20]

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I think you forgot one: 4. Or is it that they oversetimate their own skills and experience while underestimating the level of control that these wings require.

I was including that in number one actually, but without being specific to flying the canopy.

One needs to be at least a bit "high performance" in their body position on opening with some canopies.

Thanks.

[davelepka 4]

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2. Are these people simply being talked into it by manufacturers or experienced jumpers they know?

I wouldn't think to be the case as far as mfgs go. They all have a range of canopies, and I think they would rather see a guy get what suits him well today, and then buy another in a year so as his skills develop. Not to mention the bad press of an incident, or just an unhappy jumper.

I think most of it is peer pressure, though not direct peer pressure, it's more of a percieved peer pressure. Jumpers feel that they have to fly a certain canopy, container, or jumpsuit to fit in or be cool.

Another big part is overestimating their ability, or underestimating the canopies demands (sort of one in the same).

The worst part about all of this is that none of these factors are real. Nobody cares what you fly. If it's airowrthy, and you do a nice job with it, all people will notice is the nice job.

As far as the canopies go, I really think that Pro swoopign has hurt the sport in this area. Jumpers see the pros and thier selection of wings and WL as being 'ideal', mostly due to the fact that they win comps on that equipemnt.

This has lead to the widespread belief that you are giving up performance if you're not at that WL, and has pushed jumpers to always be focused on getting to that WL. Jumpers are still looking down the road at their next donwsize when their current wing is fine, and they may actaully have bettter results with their current wing plus some extra experience.

It's actaully pretty fucked up, and again, it's not even a valid line of thinking, just an odd phenomenon that has cropped up in the last few years.

Whats really amazing is that these jumpers ignore the obvious buckets of experience and talent that got the pros where they are, and that many of these guys jump different wings at different loadings for non-comp jumps because they find them more fun and accomadating for fun jumps.

[peek 20]

Well, I was hoping for some comments from skydiving who have recently made such a decision......

Why pick the "high performance" canopy?

[EricaH 0]

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This has lead to the widespread belief that you are giving up performance if you're not at that WL, and has pushed jumpers to always be focused on getting to that WL. Jumpers are still looking down the road at their next donwsize when their current wing is fine, and they may actaully have bettter results with their current wing plus some extra experience.

It's actaully pretty fucked up, and again, it's not even a valid line of thinking

I've actually had a very experienced skydiver tell me it would be safer for me to downsize & another one tell me that a stilletto would be just as safe as my specter. I've been on my 1.38 wl canopy for almost 400 jumps now; I like this wingloading & I love my canopy. I've had to actually convince a few people that since I don't want to swoop - it'd be stupid of me to downsize. And since I like my gorgeous almost always on heading openings and flight charatoristics it would be silly to change canopies ... the pressure is very real.

edited to add - I'm not a high performance skydiver

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[davelepka 4]

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I've actually had a very experienced skydiver tell me it would be safer for me to downsize & another one tell me that a stilletto would be just as safe as my specter. I've been on my 1.38 wl canopy for almost 400 jumps now; I like this wingloading & I love my canopy.

You're in a slightly different position than the subject of the thread. Your current WL and canopy are anything but high performance, and even if you did donwsize and switch to a Stiletto, it would still be a ways off from 'high performance'.

That said, your example is a perfect illustration of my point. You're happy with your canopy and the performance even though others seem to think you could to a smaller, faster wing. You have made your selection as if you were in a bubble, devoid of influence form the outside world. You found something that suits you, and makes you happy.

You have the perfect canopy at the ideal WL.

[EricaH 0]

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You have the perfect canopy at the ideal WL.

Yea! I love validation from way more experienced people.

I know it's time to consider changing - but really, what's the rush.

It's really hard being new & having people you respect tell you all kinds of things. It's really really hard going against what seems to be the general populace & "making decisions in a bubble". especially since from inside that bubble you have to consider so many factors.

Any downsize would put me in the 135 range w/ a wl of 1.55. Let me ask this, is there ANY reason other than swooping and being able to jump in higher wind days (and I guess ego too) to go above a 1.5 wl?

edited - question not directed to anyone specifically, just generally wondering why?

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[davelepka 4]

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Any downsize would put me in the 135 range w/ a wl of 1.55. Let me ask this, is there ANY reason other than swooping and being able to jump in higher wind days (and I guess ego too) to go above a 1.5 wl?

No reason. The wind speed thing is the only factor, and truth be told, generally the higher the wind speed, the less you want to be jumping, even if your canopy is fast enough to push through it.

Wind related phenomenon such as gusts, turbulence and general instability are all magnified with wind speed. Additionally, with the spot needing to be further away from the airport, anything that gets you under a good canopy lower than expected such as line twists or a cutaway are more likely to result in an off field landing. Remember, the whoel reason you're so far away is that it's a high wind day, and now you're off field.

Jumping in higher winds isn't all it's cracked up to be. Save your jump money and go see a movie or whatever. Go back on a nicer day and jump twice as hard to 'make up' for the wind day.

[jakee 1,271]

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Well, I was hoping for some comments from skydiving who have recently made such a decision......

Why pick the "high performance" canopy?

Well I jump a Sabre [email protected]:1, had it since around jump 110, got ~280 jumps now. The way I see it, HP canopies are more fun, there's no getting around that fact. I moved from a 190 to my 150 (I had jumped 170's before) and I thought it was the best thing ever, the speed, the responsiveness, the turns - it was f-ing fantastic.

Thing is, about 5 jumps later I'd 'got used to it'. It didn't have that wow factor anymore. So after about 40 or 50 jumps on it I really wanted to downsize to a 135 just to get that excitement back. I didn't do it 'cos I couldn't afford to but the desire was there.

But my canopy skills are growing now and in the last 80 jumps I've started front riser approaches, first double fronts, now 90* turns and this 150 is really really fun again. Downsizing (or an elliptical canopy) would have been a short cut to the fun I'm having now that I've developed into a better pilot, even though I believe the route I'm on is the safer and better one.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[EricaH 0]

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Jumping in higher winds isn't all it's cracked up to be. Save your jump money and go see a movie or whatever. Go back on a nicer day and jump twice as hard to 'make up' for the wind day.

That is exactly how I feel. I alreay have a fairly high wind speed tolerance - I honestly don't think it'd go any higher even if i could push through it. Plus add all the extra issues you mentioned - THAT is exactly why I don't understand the "need" to go above a 1.5 wl.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[peek 20]

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I've actually had a very experienced skydiver tell me it would be safer for me to downsize & another one tell me that a stilletto would be just as safe as my specter

I just don't know what's wrong with people like that. I wonder where they are coming from.....

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edited to add - I'm not a high performance skydiver

But the good judgement you have demonstrated shows you _do_ have a high performance brain.

[superstu 0]

i could write a lot on this thread but the very very short version is, i think, lack of knowledge.

newer jumpers coming into the sport look up to the more "experienced" jumpers to what they say and what they are doing, but because they are so new they don't even realize that the people they are talking to barely know more than them.

if newer jumpers talked to and were trained by people that actually new what was going on i would bet we would see less novice jumpers on high performance canopies and at high performance wing loadings.

and while i'm on the subject of wing loadings, i'm kind of at the thought that wing loading is more important than canopy type. the higher the wing loading the more experienced at canopy flight a person needs to be. and there is a difference between canopy flight time and jump numbers. someone with 600 hop n pops from 12k would more than likely be a better canopy pilot than someone with 1000 jumps but pulls at 3k all the time. time in the harness is critical. but what we're seeing are people with 500 jumps on canopy loaded at 1.7 or higher and pounding in, and it's on all different types of parachutes from spectres and sabres to katana's and velo's.

but that's just a little bit of what i think on this issue.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[pilotdave 0]

I've been told a bunch of times that I underload my canopy (sabre2 135 at ~1.1) and a smaller canopy would be safer for me in turbulence. Any truth to that? I'm not talking about being able to jump in worse turbulence, I'm talking about the canopy being more rigid in the same turbulence.

I've jumped a Manta 288 loaded at under 0.5. I don't believe in underloading.
Dave

[EricaH 0]

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But the good judgement you have demonstrated shows you _do_ have a high performance brain

gosh, thanks so much

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[superstu 0]

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a smaller canopy would be safer for me in turbulence. Any truth to that?

the faster you can fly your parachute the less likely it will be suseptable to colapse. the faster air is rammed into your ram-air parachute the more rigged it will be. however, if you fly through a dust devel or intentially land next to things that cause turbulence then that's not exactly the parachutes fault. but a sabre2 at 1.1 should be safe to fly in almost all conditions, but just know that as the wind picks up and turbulence is created you just have to be more careful and be more aware to fly your parachute in full flight and not braked flight so much.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[ntacfreefly 0]

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and a smaller canopy would be safer for me in turbulence.

The safest option is to not jump when it's turbulent
That said a smaller canopy would 'cut through' it better BUT (and this is a BIG BIG BUT) should it collapse it will be way more violent and potentially fatal than a larger canopy. Having a small wing collapse and spin up at 500 feet can be deadly whereas the same scenario under a 170 Spectre (for example) will just result in you shitting your pants
I've seen a 170 collapse and get into line twists around 700 feet still giving the pilot enough time to get out of the twisties. If the same had happened to me on my canopy the results could have been catastrophic.

So, small canopies aren't necessarily safer in turbulence when you consider all the scenarios.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[EricaH 0]

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small canopies aren't necessarily safer in turbulence when you consider all the scenarios

ooo - I like that one!

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Ron 7]

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1. If one purchases a "high performance" canopy, is it not reasonable to expect them to be a "high performance skydiver"?

I really respect you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334