ypelchat 0 #51 January 30, 2006 QuoteMy question is why do you have to throw away.. an old cypress. Because it's a cypres... Yves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #52 January 30, 2006 QuoteIt's on! Why did the chicken cross the street.......to get some pussy? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #53 January 30, 2006 While that may all be true, not everything that fails or deteriorates leads to what you could label as a catastrophic failure. And, not all catastrophic failures lead to premature deployment (the ONLY point IMO that would justify said measurement) If f.i. an LCD display doesn't show the complete digits anymore, the rest of the instrument could be fully functional. (Used to have a watch like that - the upper horizontal beam of the third digit didn't show. Yet, miraculously, I always could tell the time... Do I endanger my fellow skydivers when I jump with a cracked cutter that may result in not cutting the loop? Do I endanger my fellow skydivers when I jump with one that (like my old laptop) needs some fumbling with the button in order to make contact? I don't think so. And since I'm educated at the DZ as well as on DZ.com I know the holy mantra by hart: "save my own life - don't be device-dependant" As for the pilots ticket being at risk? Where do you regularly jump - in the library of the U.S. supreme court? Cause in real life... BTW, I encountered damaged wires (through mishandling) on cypresses that were well within their age limitation. Others have to. Often these units ended up sent in for service outside the schedule. So all in all we have a device that may or may not work yet we should take it out of our rigs and trash it since the manufacturer says it may or may not work... AND: It has a 'selftest' to see if it is good to go, yet can pass that self test with flying colours and be not good to go even if I replaced the batteries yesterday... Quote(from the link you provided) The CYPRES is a very compact and sophisticated electronic device, which - during a 4 year time period - was probably subjected to all possible mechanical and thermal stresses. It is a possibility that the CYPRES had been left in the trunk of a car for days, the rig lay in the sun when packing, a landing was not so good and/or the unit may have been subjected to great temperature differences if jumping in cold areas. In addition, certain components age and need compensation even if the unit is not used or switched on. As with other rig components, CYPRES performs its task on every jump - and not only if an activation occurs. A possible activation is the end of a continuous work process. To ensure that the unit performs this work - even after a long period of time - as precisely as a new unit does, it needs a thorough check periodically. This is why the maintenance is necessary. I PROBABLY lay my rig in the sun while packing. I PROBABLY leave my rig in the cartrunk for days. I PROBABLY don't know how to land a parachute in such a way that I don't subject my precious cypres (inside my reserve container in its own cozy pocket safely protected between my reserve and the double layer that seperates the container) to more G force than it can stand. I do that miraculously without hurting myself in the process... Yeah, right... But how come the 20+ year old DZ tv that is left there in the hangar in winter and summer keeps going and going and going, starting up like clockwork every spring after a 5 to 6 months lay-off in an environment that doesn't have 'climate control'? (granted, it doesn't "remember" its coloursettings anymore, but if you manually adjust them, they are fine...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #54 January 30, 2006 QuoteThey said that they couldn't guarantee correct operation of the device beyond the 12yr lifespan, If I remember correctly, they - like all other manufacturers of parachuting equipment - also said that they couldn't guarantee correct operation within the life span since they could not guarantee correct operation period. QuoteIf they allow out-of-tolerance Cypreses to be operated until they fail, they'll destroy their reputation. Why? They can simply say that it was out of tolerance, i.e. "proceed at your own risk"... And why is it up to them to say that (other than the 'out of tolerance' leading to premature deployment, in which case a user could opt to only jump solo with said equipment...) Please DO remember that there was at least one cypres-save through an 'illegal' cypres (Rantoul AFAIK) and only recently someone went in pulling nothing when his cypres had been sent away for maintainance... As Riggerrob stated elsewhere in this thread, he has seen Sentinel Mk 2000 as late as 1999 - by that time there wasn't any 'certified service centre' for that gadget anymore, AFAIK... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #55 January 30, 2006 QuoteWhile that may all be true, not everything that fails or deteriorates leads to what you could label as a catastrophic failure Catastrophic failure can either be opening prematurally or failing to work at all. One factor in the aging is that the chemicals used to operate the cutter have a shelf life too. Back in Chemistry class all the chemicals used to have a shelf life. Could we still use them past then? Sure, but the reliability factor in their use would decrease and render the results potentially skewed. How would you like to have your cutter only have enough energey to bounce the razor blade off the line instead of slice it since the chemical reaction is thrown off due to the organics in the fuel decomposing? With an AAD there are several potenial things that can happen. 1) conditions are met and it fires 2) Conditions are met and it does not fire 3) Conditions are not met and it fires. 2 out of the 3 are very bad situations to be in. The second one results in death usually while the third it totally unpredictable as to the results. Airtec has spent a lot of time, money and effort in maintaining a reputation in the industry that their device when properly maintained will work as expected. If it would start failing confidence in their product would evaporate and they would go out of business. No one wants to buy an AAD that won't work when it should. My LCD screen was broke so no digits displayed correctly. No one could tell if it was on or off, showing an error code or not. It might be functional, if I could verify it was on Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #56 January 30, 2006 QuoteMy LCD screen was broke so no digits displayed correctly. No one could tell if it was on or off, showing an error code or not. It might be functional, if I could verify it was on and that could be labeled as a 'catastrophic failure' which would deem the unit unairworthy. Of course, you have to be able to see wether the unit is on or of. (The subject of the thread: Throw away a 13 year old cypres. Which is not "Throw away a 13 year old cypres with a broken LCD screen"...) But a fault in the LCD screen like with my old watch as mentioned in my previous post? Would you (if it happened in the middle of the season and the thing was within 'age limits' / not due for service) get it out of the rig and send it in, if apparently just the 'upper beam' of one of the digits didn't show? And to make matters even more complicated, for the sake of the argument, it is your personal AAD in your personal rig and you are a Dutch skydiver without a C-license so you MUST have an AAD when jumping at a Dutch DZ... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #57 January 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteThey said that they couldn't guarantee correct operation of the device beyond the 12yr lifespan, If I remember correctly, they - like all other manufacturers of parachuting equipment - also said that they couldn't guarantee correct operation within the life span since they could not guarantee correct operation period. *** QuoteSo true. There are warning labels, waivers, that all state 'can cause serios injury or death'. So many disclaimers with skydiving equipment. Ultimately it is the users responsibility of the use/maintenance of the equipment. No one can guarantee our safety while using skydiving gear. Nice of the manufacturers and the FAA to give us a little guidance, manuals/ FAR's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #58 January 31, 2006 Bravo! Thanks for posting an apology.And yes, some in the sport ARE wound a little too tight. Probably includes me, but I'd like to think my motives are good.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #59 January 31, 2006 QuoteBravo! Thanks for posting an apology.And yes, some in the sport ARE wound a little too tight. Probably includes me, but I'd like to think my motives are good. JP, I agree with you on all accounts. But I think I agree with mojosparkey, I still wouldn't fly with this guy on any given day, too many "ugly" days back in the 70's and 80's, and 90's. Too many friends dead or injured over the years. Been there done that! To quote "There but for the grace of God (wheather you believe in it ir not) go I". That's the way it was, is and will always will be. That's life. Mick. TFB. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #60 January 31, 2006 Too true. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #61 January 31, 2006 JP, your motives are good. Much respect. CL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #62 January 31, 2006 Thanks brother.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #63 January 31, 2006 Best 'o luck with your new endeavors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #64 January 31, 2006 QuoteBest 'o luck with your new endeavors. He us going to freeze his ass off and get blisters shoveling snow. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #65 January 31, 2006 Bite me. I'm gonna be sippin' tropical drinks and wearing bremuda shorts in our WARM tunnel.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #66 January 31, 2006 What??????? WARM TUNNEL? What's her name? Tropical drinks!!!! I wanna play!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #67 January 31, 2006 QuoteWhat's her name? Ummm.....Sally?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyL 0 #68 January 31, 2006 The Warm Tunnels name is Sally? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #69 January 31, 2006 Errr...nevermind.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #70 January 31, 2006 QuoteErrr...nevermind. Boy, walked right into that one huh? Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChrisL 2 #71 February 1, 2006 Dude, they cant make their recomendations based on the 999 units out of 1000 that continue to operate reliably after 12 years, they have to make their recomendation with regard to the 1 unit that failed. I know the person that may end up with that one unit will agree with this :-) Nobody ever claimed that the Cypres will instantly begin to fail at 12 years and one day. Most of them are probably still quite safe. They are concerned with the few that fail, not the many that are still OK (for an unknown amount of time) Oh, by the way, they are allowed to make money too. Thats why they are in business. Are they motivated in part by the bottom line? Sure thing. I dont have a problem with that. Just as a side note, and not intended as a personal attack, but if you are truely as you represent in this thread, I'd give real serious consideration before I stepped onto an aircraft owned or maintained by you. Then I'd opt out and find another ride. It might be perfectly fine 999 times out of 1000, but that one time is the one I'd be thinking about.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 8 #72 February 2, 2006 QuoteMy question is why do you have to throw away(or trade in for a whopping $50) an old cypress. I know that the manufacturer recomends it but why do I care what they "Recomend"? I asked my rigger and he said he did'nt know either. That he has several that there is not a darn thing wrong with and would'nt feel any apprehension about jumping. Is there an FAR or something that say's that they are life limited? If there is I can't find one anywhere If I jump an 13 year old Cypres do the cypres police come get me or what? It never ceases to amaze me when ever this question / arguement comes up... geeze... Why do most of us put a Cypres in our rigs? My words... In case we get knocked out in freefall or for some reason, suffer a serious lapse in altitude awareness and wind-up on an instant away from bouncing. Argue all you want... but without thinking about it really hard, I can think of 3 jumpers that would be DEAD if they hadn't had a Cypres and I can think of 2 jumpers that most likely would be alive if they would have had a Cypres. Experienced skydivers want an AAD that is ultra reliable and very unintrusive. Again, argue all you want, but Cypres has what, like a 98 or 99% reliability track record; all you gotta do is maintain it properly and and remember to turn it on, AT THE DZ, and then pretty much forget it and then go jump. Before Cypres, AADs were too "twitchy" for the liking of experienced jumpers... i.e. generally speaking, the likelyhood of one going off when it shouldn't was too high for the liking of the experienced crowd. Okay, so y'all go out and buy yourself a Cypres and basically you want it to be 100% reliable all the time... its there to SAVE YOUR LIFE when you can't or FORGET too... but you don't want to listen to the maufacturers instructions on how to use the device? One of which is that after 12 years, its a hood-ornament... AND... the FARs dictate that a Rigger cannot pack a reserve with an expired Cypres, blah, blah, blah... but what I said first..."...y'all go out and buy yourself a Cypres and basically you want it to be 100% reliable all the time... its there to SAVE YOUR LIFE when you can't or FORGET too.."... and the guys who build the thing say that it should come out of service after 12 years... and y'all get bent about it?? What the *^&(&*% sense does that make. Here's a tid-bit too... I work on military aircraft. To the best of my knowlege, there is not one single piece of pyro involved in the emergency egress system of any jets I've worked on that is left in service for 12+ years. Again, argue all you want, but one of the things the military and engineers have learned, is sometimes things don't work when you need them to when they get old. Best change them out after "X" amount of time... especially when it comes to life support, you'd best err on the side of caution. Someone up-post made the comparison of PT-6s way over TBO in jump planes since jump planes are operated under Part 91... well, interesting comparison and I suppose that there are many PT-6s out there in the jump-fleet that are over TBO... however, if said PT-6 shells out, what happens about 4 or 5 seconds later? The airplane doesn't dematerialize... but what happens to you about 4 or 5 seconds later if you go through 1000' AGL still in freefall and you don't get a reserve coming out? Last but not least... how many of y'all out there bitchin' that a Cypres 1 sunsets 12 years after DOM have or are close to actually owning one for its entiere 12 years? Overall, on this issue, I say, "Quit your bitchin'!"... but, hey, its a free world (mostly) and folks pissin' and moanin' because they got sand in their pussy over this or that probably isn't going to end here on DZ.com anytime soon either... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 4 #73 February 2, 2006 I'll just say this, although it may have already been said... It isn't that you didn't know the lifetime issue when you bought it, or at least you should have known. I have a cypres and I'm glad. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #74 February 3, 2006 QuoteTo the best of my knowlege, there is not one single piece of pyro involved in the emergency egress system of any jets I've worked on that is left in service for 12+ years. The complete parachute system in a modern fighter jet has a service life of less then 12 years. Thats the canopy, risers, harness, everything. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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diablopilot 2 #58 January 31, 2006 Bravo! Thanks for posting an apology.And yes, some in the sport ARE wound a little too tight. Probably includes me, but I'd like to think my motives are good.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #59 January 31, 2006 QuoteBravo! Thanks for posting an apology.And yes, some in the sport ARE wound a little too tight. Probably includes me, but I'd like to think my motives are good. JP, I agree with you on all accounts. But I think I agree with mojosparkey, I still wouldn't fly with this guy on any given day, too many "ugly" days back in the 70's and 80's, and 90's. Too many friends dead or injured over the years. Been there done that! To quote "There but for the grace of God (wheather you believe in it ir not) go I". That's the way it was, is and will always will be. That's life. Mick. TFB. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #60 January 31, 2006 Too true. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #61 January 31, 2006 JP, your motives are good. Much respect. CL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #62 January 31, 2006 Thanks brother.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #63 January 31, 2006 Best 'o luck with your new endeavors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #64 January 31, 2006 QuoteBest 'o luck with your new endeavors. He us going to freeze his ass off and get blisters shoveling snow. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #65 January 31, 2006 Bite me. I'm gonna be sippin' tropical drinks and wearing bremuda shorts in our WARM tunnel.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #66 January 31, 2006 What??????? WARM TUNNEL? What's her name? Tropical drinks!!!! I wanna play!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #67 January 31, 2006 QuoteWhat's her name? Ummm.....Sally?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #68 January 31, 2006 The Warm Tunnels name is Sally? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #69 January 31, 2006 Errr...nevermind.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #70 January 31, 2006 QuoteErrr...nevermind. Boy, walked right into that one huh? Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #71 February 1, 2006 Dude, they cant make their recomendations based on the 999 units out of 1000 that continue to operate reliably after 12 years, they have to make their recomendation with regard to the 1 unit that failed. I know the person that may end up with that one unit will agree with this :-) Nobody ever claimed that the Cypres will instantly begin to fail at 12 years and one day. Most of them are probably still quite safe. They are concerned with the few that fail, not the many that are still OK (for an unknown amount of time) Oh, by the way, they are allowed to make money too. Thats why they are in business. Are they motivated in part by the bottom line? Sure thing. I dont have a problem with that. Just as a side note, and not intended as a personal attack, but if you are truely as you represent in this thread, I'd give real serious consideration before I stepped onto an aircraft owned or maintained by you. Then I'd opt out and find another ride. It might be perfectly fine 999 times out of 1000, but that one time is the one I'd be thinking about.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #72 February 2, 2006 QuoteMy question is why do you have to throw away(or trade in for a whopping $50) an old cypress. I know that the manufacturer recomends it but why do I care what they "Recomend"? I asked my rigger and he said he did'nt know either. That he has several that there is not a darn thing wrong with and would'nt feel any apprehension about jumping. Is there an FAR or something that say's that they are life limited? If there is I can't find one anywhere If I jump an 13 year old Cypres do the cypres police come get me or what? It never ceases to amaze me when ever this question / arguement comes up... geeze... Why do most of us put a Cypres in our rigs? My words... In case we get knocked out in freefall or for some reason, suffer a serious lapse in altitude awareness and wind-up on an instant away from bouncing. Argue all you want... but without thinking about it really hard, I can think of 3 jumpers that would be DEAD if they hadn't had a Cypres and I can think of 2 jumpers that most likely would be alive if they would have had a Cypres. Experienced skydivers want an AAD that is ultra reliable and very unintrusive. Again, argue all you want, but Cypres has what, like a 98 or 99% reliability track record; all you gotta do is maintain it properly and and remember to turn it on, AT THE DZ, and then pretty much forget it and then go jump. Before Cypres, AADs were too "twitchy" for the liking of experienced jumpers... i.e. generally speaking, the likelyhood of one going off when it shouldn't was too high for the liking of the experienced crowd. Okay, so y'all go out and buy yourself a Cypres and basically you want it to be 100% reliable all the time... its there to SAVE YOUR LIFE when you can't or FORGET too... but you don't want to listen to the maufacturers instructions on how to use the device? One of which is that after 12 years, its a hood-ornament... AND... the FARs dictate that a Rigger cannot pack a reserve with an expired Cypres, blah, blah, blah... but what I said first..."...y'all go out and buy yourself a Cypres and basically you want it to be 100% reliable all the time... its there to SAVE YOUR LIFE when you can't or FORGET too.."... and the guys who build the thing say that it should come out of service after 12 years... and y'all get bent about it?? What the *^&(&*% sense does that make. Here's a tid-bit too... I work on military aircraft. To the best of my knowlege, there is not one single piece of pyro involved in the emergency egress system of any jets I've worked on that is left in service for 12+ years. Again, argue all you want, but one of the things the military and engineers have learned, is sometimes things don't work when you need them to when they get old. Best change them out after "X" amount of time... especially when it comes to life support, you'd best err on the side of caution. Someone up-post made the comparison of PT-6s way over TBO in jump planes since jump planes are operated under Part 91... well, interesting comparison and I suppose that there are many PT-6s out there in the jump-fleet that are over TBO... however, if said PT-6 shells out, what happens about 4 or 5 seconds later? The airplane doesn't dematerialize... but what happens to you about 4 or 5 seconds later if you go through 1000' AGL still in freefall and you don't get a reserve coming out? Last but not least... how many of y'all out there bitchin' that a Cypres 1 sunsets 12 years after DOM have or are close to actually owning one for its entiere 12 years? Overall, on this issue, I say, "Quit your bitchin'!"... but, hey, its a free world (mostly) and folks pissin' and moanin' because they got sand in their pussy over this or that probably isn't going to end here on DZ.com anytime soon either... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #73 February 2, 2006 I'll just say this, although it may have already been said... It isn't that you didn't know the lifetime issue when you bought it, or at least you should have known. I have a cypres and I'm glad. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #74 February 3, 2006 QuoteTo the best of my knowlege, there is not one single piece of pyro involved in the emergency egress system of any jets I've worked on that is left in service for 12+ years. The complete parachute system in a modern fighter jet has a service life of less then 12 years. Thats the canopy, risers, harness, everything. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
