Kiting your canopy - was: Demo injury

[dorbie 0]

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There's no rush to bring down your canopy.

If you were making even modest ground speed it should fly just fine and give you plenty of time to kill it. All you need is some kiting practice. As soon as you're done flaring you should let up on the brakes & keep it flying in stronger wind. If it feels like you're getting pulled back don't fight it, sit in your harness load the wing and stay under it. This will increase your airspeed and help you maintain stationary ground speed.

Turn around and bring it down by stalling it quickly on the rear risers rather that pulling on the toggles. This will produce much less drag & horizontal component of lift and take a lot less effort.

There is a timing element involved and if you haven't got a lotta practice doing that, or don't usually jump in windy situations I wouldn't recommend trying it at a demo...added to the mix she was jumping a drop flag maybe 1/4 of her body weight. The minimal forward drive is lost the instant it touches the ground.

Yes practice is important, if you don't have the kiting skill then you will have difficulty putting this into practice. Any jumper should factor in their ability before exiting in high wind. The key thing to learn is that your response to getting pulled back is to let up on your toggles and get your ass down in your harness. Trying to kill your canopy through brake input when you're losing a battle with the wind is about the worst thing to do because before your canopy comes down the horizontal component of lift is going to become massive and kill your airspeed (you'll have an increasingly negative ground speed).

That and keeping the canopy over your head with minor touches on the rear risers or break lines and body shifts are the main skills. I personally let go the brakes when I turn to face my canopy and it allows less induced drag through brake input when controlling like this.

If you have forward airspeed speed due to the weight of the flag and your ground speed goes negative due to the loss of this wing loading then it's probably too windy to be jumping, but we don't have that info. However, even when you are moving backwards, the same ideas apply.

In practice most people feel a loss of airspeed because a lot of THEIR body weight is resting on the ground, load the harness and get off the brakes on touchdown and don't complete the flare after you kill your vertical speed. You cannot re-load with canopy with the flag weight but you can with your own body.

P.S.

There are many places to practice kiting, it doesn't need a busy DZ. On landing you need not kite your canopy for a long time, you're kiting it for a short time to get it down faster and you will get it down faster and safer like this than you will fighting it on the brakes.

[davelepka 4]

This sounds like bullshit. If you're jumping in high winds, disconnect your RSL before you land, get your canopy on the ground ASAP, and be prepared to cut away if you get pulled off of your feet.

In higher winds, spending any extra time with an infated canopy is ill advised. If there are gusts or turbulence (and there usually is), your kited canopy can buck and fold under which leads to a loss of control while the canopy remain partially inflated.

Getting your canopy turned around and flying it into the ground should happen the moment you touch down. Once the nose hits the ground, move immediately toward the canopy, and get your foot on the nose of the canopy as close the center cell as possible. This will contain the canopy, and prevent it from going anywhere.

Give up on the idea of stowing your brakes, or un-doing your slider. Reel in the lines, and bundle your canopy in your arms, keeping the nose inside of the bundle to prevent partial inflation as you walk in.

I am a fan of kiting, and do it frequently if I touch down and feel enough wind to keep the canopy flying. However I would never reccomend it to anyone jumping in winds where they are worried about being dragged.

The real answer is not to jump in those conditions. If you find yourself in that situation, get down, get the canopy down, and contain it ASAP.

[davelepka 4]

One other quick point to make (and the quote I'm using isn't from you, but from where you quoted somebody else)

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As soon as you're done flaring you should let up on the brakes & keep it flying in stronger wind.

That's the shittiest advice of all.

Once you land, and your toggles are down, letting them up will do the same thing it does if you made those moves while flying your canopy; the canopy will dump all the lift, and surge forward and (try to) dive.

All this will do is encourge the canopy to buck or fold under as the topskin is presented to the wind. The reusult of this is a sudden loss of control, and a good chance the jumper will get pulled off of their feet.

It is entirely possible to do the manuver given a moderate, clean wind, and a practiced, careful jumper. In conditions where you feel at risk for being dragged, your chances of success are much lower.

[billvon 2,476]

>In higher winds, spending any extra time with an infated canopy is ill
>advised.

Agreed. Being pulled off your feet results in having zero control, and the odds of the demo jumper being pulled into the crowd (for example) go up dramatically. Collapse your canopy as rapidly as possible after you land if you're worried about being dragged.

[dorbie 0]

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This sounds like bullshit. If you're jumping in high winds, disconnect your RSL before you land, get your canopy on the ground ASAP, and be prepared to cut away if you get pulled off of your feet.

In higher winds, spending any extra time with an infated canopy is ill advised. If there are gusts or turbulence (and there usually is), your kited canopy can buck and fold under which leads to a loss of control while the canopy remain partially inflated.

Getting your canopy turned around and flying it into the ground should happen the moment you touch down. Once the nose hits the ground, move immediately toward the canopy, and get your foot on the nose of the canopy as close the center cell as possible. This will contain the canopy, and prevent it from going anywhere.

Give up on the idea of stowing your brakes, or un-doing your slider. Reel in the lines, and bundle your canopy in your arms, keeping the nose inside of the bundle to prevent partial inflation as you walk in.

I am a fan of kiting, and do it frequently if I touch down and feel enough wind to keep the canopy flying. However I would never reccomend it to anyone jumping in winds where they are worried about being dragged.

The real answer is not to jump in those conditions. If you find yourself in that situation, get down, get the canopy down, and contain it ASAP.

Nonsense. You can control your canopy and get it down very quickly on the rear risers much safer and with no chance of getting dragged. Your toggles WILL NOT be down in a high wind after landing, because you do not need to complete your flare, your ground speed will be zero long before your hands are down.

As I posted in the other thread watch this from 4:05 and at 4:45 wou will see how instantly the canopy is under control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWNnxqukz9Y

I'm not saying do this without the skill but practicing your kiting and building up to this is the way to ensure you keep it under control in high wind.

[dorbie 0]

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>In higher winds, spending any extra time with an infated canopy is ill
>advised.

Agreed. Being pulled off your feet results in having zero control, and the odds of the demo jumper being pulled into the crowd (for example) go up dramatically. Collapse your canopy as rapidly as possible after you land if you're worried about being dragged.

The best way to collapse a canopy quickly without getting dragged is to get on the rear risers. 4:45 on my video.

[dorbie 0]

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One other quick point to make (and the quote I'm using isn't from you, but from where you quoted somebody else)

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As soon as you're done flaring you should let up on the brakes & keep it flying in stronger wind.

That's the shittiest advice of all.

Once you land, and your toggles are down, letting them up will do the same thing it does if you made those moves while flying your canopy; the canopy will dump all the lift, and surge forward and (try to) dive.

Rubbish, this is abject nonsense.

Your toggles are not down after a high wind landing, that's the surest way to start moving backward before you are even standing.

[billvon 2,476]

>As I posted in the other thread watch this from 4:05 and at 4:45 wou will
>see how instantly the canopy is under control.

Interestingly, in that video, you get dragged (or at least have to run after your canopy) for the first four or five seconds. And while that can be fun in a wide open landing area, there are cases where a jumper does not have the luxury of running around while they kite their canopy, as in the incident where a jumper had a big flag to deal with.

In cases where the jumper absolutely has to get his canopy under control as quickly as possible, killing it with the toggles is faster and more reliable. Cutting away is the absolute fastest and most reliable way to deal with very strong winds.

[dorbie 0]

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>As I posted in the other thread watch this from 4:05 and at 4:45 wou will
>see how instantly the canopy is under control.

Interestingly, in that video, you get dragged (or at least have to run after your canopy) for the first four or five seconds. And while that can be fun in a wide open landing area, there are cases where a jumper does not have the luxury of running around while they kite their canopy, as in the incident where a jumper had a big flag to deal with.

In cases where the jumper absolutely has to get his canopy under control as quickly as possible, killing it with the toggles is faster and more reliable. Cutting away is the absolute fastest and most reliable way to deal with very strong winds.

As I said in the other thread, I held too much toggle after landing, you can see it on the video, live & learn, however I did not get dragged. I took two or three steps back and the canopy was under control at all times.

If you kill it with the toggles in a high wind situation like this you will induce a lot more drag and horizontal lift in whatever direction and you'll be moving back a lot more than I was. Even if you're flying it into the ground. So I thoroughly disagree, unless you have arms like an orangutang or are jumping a pocket rocket.

No argument on cutting away, but it is completely unnecessary unless you simply cannot penetrate to maintain zero ground speed.

[davelepka 4]

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As I posted in the other thread watch this from 4:05 and at 4:45 wou will see how instantly the canopy is under control.

I did watch, and you can plainly see that you do indeed take several steps back while you get the canopy under control. Not what you want to be doing in high winds.

Next, if you look at the ease at which you can release the controls, and the angle of the canopy relative to the horizon, the winds on that landing were not high at all, and did not represent a situation where you needed to worry about being dragged. If the winds were indeed in the 'high' range, you would have needed to keep your canopy straight up over your head to keep the drag down, and you would have needed two hands to control it at all times.

Finally, it's interesting to note that when you dump the canopy to the ground with the rears and it's lying there with the nose up, that you use the risers to fly one side over the other and get the nose facing into the ground before you start to pick it up. This is the same manuver you would make if you turned and grounded the canopy with a toggle upon touchdown. You would fly the canopy straight into the ground, because that's the best way to get control over it. Exactly what you did after you put on your kiting show.

Your video is an illustration of one thing. In the case where a person has concern for their physical well-being, the correct course of action is what I outlined in my earlier post in this thread.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about a high wind condition where being dragged is a possibility. It would be a situation where the winds have increased since your lift took off, and the conditions upon landing would be such that you would not have boarded the plane if they existed at that time.

A good indication of what it would be like is if you went out to kite your canopy the next time there's a wind hold at the DZ. If it's too windy to too jump, that's the type of conditions where you need to be concerned about being dragged. The kiting will be much more difficult, and a physical work out to keep the canopy under control. Disconnect your RSL and wear a helmet.

[dorbie 0]

As a Paraglider pilot I've done a lot of kiting in high winds and much larger wings than the canopies we skydive with.

When I was a student it was a lot of work, but kiting is not a lot of physical exertion once you master it, so you need more practice if you find it so. The key is to stay under the wing, keep it loaded instead of pulling it into the wind and induce the minimum of drag with control input in high wind (rear riser steering instead of toggles if necessary).

Nothing wrong with stepping back under control and I've already addressed the point I was holding some toggle after landing that I should not have been. The best way to make killing a canopy using toggles safer is to step back (towards the canopy)as you do it.

Some of your observations are simply not correct like the nose, it was just the random dynamics and unnecessary. The canopy was completely limp and tail into the wind at that point.

[airtwardo 6]

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As a Paraglider pilot I've done a lot of kiting in high winds and much larger wings than the canopies we skydive with.

When I was a student it was a lot of work, but kiting is not a lot of physical exertion once you master it, so you need more practice if you find it so. The key is to stay under the wing, keep it loaded instead of pulling it into the wind and induce the minimum of drag with control input in high wind (rear riser steering instead of toggles if necessary).

Nothing wrong with stepping back under control and I've already addressed the point I was holding some toggle after landing that I should not have been. The best way to make killing a canopy using toggles safer is to step back (towards the canopy)as you do it.

Some of your observations are simply not correct like the nose, it was just the random dynamics and unnecessary. The canopy was completely limp and tail into the wind at that point.

The bottom line is, like you said it can be done but takes practice...if done wrong or at a busy dz it's dangerous.

I look at it like I do pond swooping... looks cool, takes a lotta practice, if done wrong is messy & there are so many 'easier' ways to accomplish the same basic thing.

A bunch of experienced jumpers are trying to tell you this but ya insist your way is better...I for one disagree with you.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

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As a Paraglider pilot I've done a lot of kiting in high winds and much larger wings than the canopies we skydive with.

This might have been something to mention at the outset. When the advice comes from a highly experienced expert, people can easily understand that what works for you, may not be the correct course of action for them.

As it was, you did not mention that, instead you made it sound like a valid course of action for most people. You even defended it as such when I suggested that there was a simpler and more reliable procedure that others should follow.

The truth is, I don't really care which way you personally do anything. However it does bother me when you offer up bad advise for all to see.

At this point the public at large has heard both sides and will do what ever makes sense to them.

[theonlyski 3]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWNnxqukz9Y

well. shit... I thought we werent allowed to jump thru clouds...maybe I should come to your DZ, cause they wont even put the load up without a hole big enough to see the entire area around the dz.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[dorbie 0]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWNnxqukz9Y

well. shit... I thought we werent allowed to jump thru clouds...maybe I should come to your DZ, cause they wont even put the load up without a hole big enough to see the entire area around the dz.

I've seen entire loads get out with more cloud cover at other DZs.

[pchapman 262]

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When I was a student it was a lot of work, but kiting is not a lot of physical exertion once you master it, so you need more practice if you find it so.

I don't have enough practice with any of the techniques in actual high wind to be authoritative.

I'll mostly tend to side with the standard skydiving approach here, but see some use in Dorbie's paragliding techniques.

You land, you have toggles in your hand, so it is quick to let one up and haul one down to turn & dive the canopy into the ground. It's faster than turning around and getting on risers. (And of course there is the cutaway option in extreme circumstances.)

If you aren't going to slam the canopy into the ground, at least on only moderately strong days, I do see that kiting the canopy above can make it easier to control the canopy. It's a neat technique.

Some leave the canopy dragging behind them after they touch down, there's a lot of drag force, and they get pulled off their feet before they can turn around. Letting up on the brakes upon touchdown to kite the canopy almost straight above reduces the drag and makes the canopy easier to control in the short time until one can turn around.

I'm not sure I'd want to keep kiting in extremely strong and gusty wind, but it is decent for the very short term.

(While drag is lowered when the canopy is properly kited above, remember Dorbie that we're talking about lower L/D than for a paraglider, so I think there's more drag, making the skydiving situation is a little more awkward in that way. Although of course one will have it much easier for a given wind speed if using a small canopy vs. a large paraglider.)

Anyway, if one kites the canopy just long enough to turn around, then yeah it should be easier to stall and drop the canopy on rear risers than on toggles, if trying to drop it symmetrically and not slam it into the ground nose first.

I'm either trying to take both sides here or argue against both sides. I don't mind the "toggle into the ground" idea as the basic plan to teach, with ideas like kiting and rear riser stalling as valid things for people to try and learn and experiment with. That's best done in strong conditions but not actually when in danger.

Just my opinion.

[theonlyski 3]

Im not trying to be an asshole, just saying, I probably wouldnt have posted a video showing that on youtube.

BTW, that arguement is the same as 'Well officer, the other cars were speeding too' Doesnt make it any less wrong.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[dorbie 0]

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As a Paraglider pilot I've done a lot of kiting in high winds and much larger wings than the canopies we skydive with.

This might have been something to mention at the outset. When the advice comes from a highly experienced expert, people can easily understand that what works for you, may not be the correct course of action for them.

As it was, you did not mention that, instead you made it sound like a valid course of action for most people. You even defended it as such when I suggested that there was a simpler and more reliable procedure that others should follow.

The truth is, I don't really care which way you personally do anything. However it does bother me when you offer up bad advise for all to see.

At this point the public at large has heard both sides and will do what ever makes sense to them.

In the first line of the first post someone forked to this thread I said that you need practice to develop the skills to implement this. These skills are not unique to paragliding.

Any kiting experience is advantageous to a skydiver regardless of the method used.

I would not call myself an expert, I never claimed to be but I did not give bad advice, although I have seen plenty of it posted on this topic.

[JohnDeere 0]

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Im not trying to be an asshole, just saying, I probably wouldnt have posted a video showing that on youtube (with the DZ name in the info section).

BTW, that arguement is the same as 'Well officer, the other cars were speeding too' Doesnt make it any less wrong.

Fixed it for you.......... i thought the same thing!

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[theonlyski 3]

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Im not trying to be an asshole, just saying, I probably wouldnt have posted a video showing that on youtube (with the DZ name in the info section). AND The pilots NAME being said a few times

BTW, that arguement is the same as 'Well officer, the other cars were speeding too' Doesnt make it any less wrong.

Fixed it for you.......... i thought the same thing!

Yeah, I thought about those too

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[dorbie 0]

The wide angle lens can do strange things. This uses a .3x multiplier and you can still see a large hole even on exit at full altitude that should tell you that it was truly immense. The load spotted for that gap, the uppers were ripping and you can see us drift towards it we missed it.

Skydivers cloud bust, it happens, it's reality.

[billvon 2,476]

>As a Paraglider pilot I've done a lot of kiting in high winds and much
>larger wings than the canopies we skydive with.

Me too.

I'm also a fixed-wing pilot, and can tell you with a fair bit of certainty that if you land an airplane in a strong wind, you want to keep flying it until you've got it tied down - and that includes aileron (or opposite aileron if the wind is behind you) while you are taxiing. I've made the mistake of not doing that and almost trashed a brand new wingtip on a rental.

However, if I told people that they should hold some opposite toggle when the wind was behind them after they land downwind, it would be a really stupid thing to say - because canopies don't fly like airplanes. That doesn't transfer, even if I was really proud of that bit of fixed-wing technique I had learned.

Paragliding experience can teach you a lot about flying a canopy, as can flying an airplane. But assuming that what works well for a paraglider on a windy slope (or for a pilot on a windy airport) also works well for a skydiver landing on a windy field for a demo can be a mistake that results in injury or worse.

[shropshire 0]

Is a very important skill that we should ALL practise.... I don't see very many skydivers doing so but IMO it should be taught & practised much more.

Get out there with you canopies on a windy day people - One day, it COULD save you a sprained ankle (or worse).

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[dorbie 0]

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Paragliding experience can teach you a lot about flying a canopy, as can flying an airplane. But assuming that what works well for a paraglider on a windy slope (or for a pilot on a windy airport) also works well for a skydiver landing on a windy field for a demo can be a mistake that results in injury or worse.

Yes and I've tried these techniques on both and shown it and I have to say that this is quite a bogus analogy. There are underlying principles at play here that translate between both types of canopy.

[freeflyer58D 1]

well i've had enough of listening to people argue about this... today after landing i let the toggles up after my weight was off loaded. the canopy came overheard and flew very well, winds 090 @20 Gusting 26. sure enough i wasnt dragged at all. i took a step or two back as well but i could have remained in place just fine. once the canopy was overhead i quickly stalled via rear risers and made sure to completely get it tail forward. then i bundled my lines and walked right in. very easy technique. i think this argument should go a different direction. we should teach people how to fly canopies. every AFF should have a dedicated canopy control course of sorts. the canopy is what is causing alot of needless injuries. if people cant even kite a canopy then i agree they should not be jumping in winds where this technique is helpful. but lets teach people and instruct new jumpers to learn more about the wing the rely on. so instead of bashing this concept. try teaching it on a windy day. oh and i also fly airplanes, helicopters and canopies. each is different but work on the same principles. educate yourselves and never stop learning.