Triathalon 160

[alan 1]

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Ok i will help you out here.

You may think you are but at best, your advice is questionable. I've got well over 2000 jumps and have been an Instructor for nearly as long as you have been jumping, including the military experience. I've had a single year in which I made more jumps than you have in your entire career. I've also jumped a 160 Tri and a 75 Onyx and an 89 X-VX and a Manta and a few dozen others in between.

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you way 160lbs and a 175 reserve is in that? good.

At 160# he has an exit qweight of about 190#. He stated he is still a student with only 20 jumps. At 190# his W/L on the 175 is nearly 1.1 to 1. That is at best OK, it is not "good" as you put it. His Instructors are the best people to make that judgement.

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160 tri is very good for you, it will give you good drive into the winds penatration and you landing it will be no problem.

Again, if he weighs 160# as stated previously that puts his W/L on the Tri at nearly 1.2. Most responsible Instructors that i know would say that is questionable at best, his skills would be the deciding factor. As a self proclaimed student with 20 jumps, his skills would be questionable again at best. Yes, you are correct in that it will give him good drive in the winds, mostly likely winds that as a student he should not be jumping in. Landing it, "no problem"? Have you even seen him land anything? I wouls again have to say questionable at best. At 20 jumps I doubt he would have the skills to handle emergency or panic situations with that canopy. By that I mean landing off, maybe getting cut off by another jumper, maybe confused with the windsock and trying a last second turn into the wind, or maybe a downwind landing.....the list goes on.

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you can also hold and make it back from long spots with the wind.

You "hold" into the wind. You "run" with the wind. What you are trying to say but don't have the training and experience to say it correctly is that on a long spot he can run with the wind in brakes or on rear risers and get and get back from a long upwind spot. What makes your advice questionable is the awkward manner in which it is stated. No sin in that, but it reflects on your credibility as a whole.

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I have a 175 tri with my jump # and ill tell you why. I have been dropped all over the place and i want to stay up longer to make it back, plus i love to fly.

Fair enough. The Tri is a good canopy. Generally speaking though a 9 cell will have a higher aspect ratio and most of the modern 9 cells glide better than the Tri simply because a higher aspect ratio gives the wing a little more effiency. That is one reason why gliders have high aspect ratios. you should be happy with your Tri, but a similar sized Safire (or any similar canopy) would do what you like about your Tri and do it better.

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I jumped the 160 alot and jumped the tri 135 also.

This is simply a comment and as such is fair enough. It lends to your experience.

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i am 195 now i dont like the speed of the 135.

Again, this is just a comment and opinion. Fair enough. At 195#, if that is your weight w/o gear then your wing loading at exit weight would be near 1.7. At your total number of jumps and level of currency that puts you up in the expert range. I haven't seen you jump, you may be that good, but with what I've seen here, that is at best questionable. I can see why you don't like the speed.

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plus this 175 opens so sweet and slow better then the 160 so thats it for me.

Openings can vary from canopy to canopy as you have noted. It has little to with the size of the canopy but your observation is fair enough. I'm not sire of what value it is to the original poster other than he is asking about a 160. Just because your 170 opens better than the 160 you jumped, that is very little reason for him to believe it will have any bearing on the openings he will experience. His stability on opening at 20 jumps will play a role, as will packing technique, and the over all trim and construction of that particular canopy.

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the tri flys the same from 220 to 160 the 160 is faster of course but you get better speed and will alow you to get a better crisper flare. you need enough weight to drive the canopy and i think you to light for a 220.

I'm not sire that at 20 jumps he will have the experience to handle the crisper flare. He needs something that is forgiving of little mistakes. You are entitled to think he is too light for the 160. I'll put my experience up against yours though and say that if he is jumping in winds that are appropriate for a 20 jump student, then he will have sufficient drive. Good motivation to stay on the ground or in the plane when you should. That "better" speed that you think is so good for him will also increase the severity of his injuries when he uses poor judgement or makes a mistake close the ground. At 20 jumps, I think it is a good bet he will be making a few mistakes while he gains experience over the next couple of hundred jumps. Again, on that point, I'll put my experience up against yours any day.

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i think you should buy the 160 now and jump it at 25 to 30 jumps. rent a 190 and a 175 tri and see.

You are entitled to your opinion. Mine is buy a 190 now and after a 100 or more jumps try the 175 then try the 160 and see. Again, his Instuctors can give better advice than me. I will say that I have seen a trend lately that is disturbing. People seem to think if they get canopy coaching or take a Scott Miller type course, that they now have the skills to downsize more rapidly. Maybe they do and maybe they don't. How well did they do in the course is an important factor. How well do they understand the of principles of flight and aerodynamics airfoils? Do they just know the mechanics from rote learning?

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now its turns faster, and is more responcive,

Reasons why at 20 jumps this is not a "good" choice. Maybe OK , but not good.

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you have!!!!!!!! to finish your flair to your finger nails on no wind days.

Yup, it requires good technique on no wind days. Technique that probably hasn't had a chance to be developed at 20 jumps. He'll do a number of face plants that he wouldn't do on a larger canopy.

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Do ont hook turn it or get stupid with it no low turns and practicve flat half breaked turns.

On the surface this is good advice. You seem to have overlooked the fact that he has 20 jumps in giving it though, or else you just have't the experience with students to know that they don't usually do anything stupid or hook turns on purpose. They do them in a panic when something unexpected happens. And with only 20 jumps of experience, a lot of unexpected things can happen. Great advice to practice flat and braked turns though. No arguement there.

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if you have a kind of windy day you will not notice much but if you jump it on a no wind day you may run or slide.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you mean winds less than 15 mph when you say kind of windy. Why run or slide when on a 190 in no wind you can do tip toe soft landings and learn good technique? Oh ya, that drive into the wind thing. I'm not buying that. It is not a good trade off.

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do a good half flare about 12-15 feet like pow hard to half way to level out and stop your decent and then bleed the rest of the flare till the end. do it flowingly just dont flare all the way hard at 12 feet or you will go up and slam.

Pretty good advice, why can't he do this on a 190? Oh ya, the drive thing again. Just is not a good trade off.

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so a quick initial flare then bleed it out quickly and put your foot on the ground when your hands are stretched way out in the flare down and out full extention. most dont finish there flare. and if you flare to late flare all the way hard and pick up your feet to slide.

Again, pretty fair advice that will work just as well on a 190. Pick up your feet to slide? You mean, don't slide on your feet, but slide on your butt? If that's it, then OK. Ummm, how much wear and tear does that put on the harness/container and jumpsuit? I only ask that because I know how often this happens even under the bigger canopies like the 190 with 20 to 50 jump newbies. As a rigger, I know it is generaly not a good idea to put any more wear ona rig than you have to.

As far as being a hypocrite (I know you were not addressing me personally but it colored your posts), I did my student jumps on a 288 Manta. At about 25 or 30 jumps and 200# exit weight I went to a 220 Cruislite. A hundred jumps on that and then a 170 Sabre. After about 50 jumps on the Sabre, I would do occassional jumps on a 150 Sabre and 160 Tri. At about 600 jumps, I demo'd a 135 Stiletto and 136 Jedi. Bought the Jedi.

Since then I have jumped nearly every major canopy currently in use in the US, big and small including a few tandem canopies. I even hold a PRO rating. I currently have an X-VX 89 with maybe 800 to a thousand jumps on it and am now about 225# out the door.

My advice to the original poster is to put very little weight on yours.

alan

[alan 1]

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they remind me of cave divers in the scuba world, they think only they can do what they do.

Most of them have a considerable amount of training and experience do do it safely and benefit from the mistakes of others and the research done into how to dive in an overhead environment more safely. Just read not to long ago of a body recovery in a cave. It was a diver not certified for the type of dive. Maybe had an attitude similar to the one you exhibit.

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but never swoop a tri its a 7 cell recovers too fast which is great but forces someone to try a low low hook turn so thats bad. its safe to try to swoop a 110 stileto then a 160 tri.

And just how much experience do you have swooping any canopy? I'll put mine up against yours here again. No one is ever forced to try a low hook turn to learn to swoop. You learn by doing straight-in approaches and brakes in a normal pattern, at least if you are learning from a competent Instructor with swooping ability. Then you progress to double front risers on final in a normal pattern. When that skill is mastered, you do some shallow combination toggle/ front riser turns onto final, working up to a nice neat 45 degree turn onto final using a 45 toggle turn from base to finish with a 45 front riser on to final. Eventually as each level is mastered, you progres to doing a 90 degree front riser turn to final. Then you work up to your level of comfort and skill.

By taking this approach, there is no need to toggle whip or hook and that simply takes the recovery arc out of the mix. It is what it is for the canopy you are jumping. When you jump a new canopy, you start from scratch and learn the new canopy and adjust the sight picture to what you learn is appropriate for the new canopy based on its recovery arc and what you learned about it by experimenting up high and trying a few straight in approaches.

Of course it doesn't hurt to have a more than basic understanding of the principles and aerodynamics involved. G forces in a turn and in the recovery arc and how they affect the forces acting on the airfoil including the wing loading, for example.

alan

[airborne82nd 0]

i am a cave diver and have been diving 16 years.

I have over 250 jumps on triathlons, nothing to bragg about but i could coach anyone on landing one, dont youthink i am qualified to talk triathlons??? how many tri jumps do you have???

i was telling him in the next 20 jumps or so get the a licsence but that would be a logical progression, now waiting buying a 190 and doing a 100 jumps on it doesnt seem best. at my dz when the winds kick up a 160# guy wont get much penatration on a 190. i understand your point though. but whats the balence you need penatration power and you need the speed also for the flare but you need the lift and the ability to stay up longer and hold for long spots. thats why i jumped all sizes and decided on the 175 tri.

Plus i do not swoop. i am a scubadiver, you dont do a cave dive on recreational scuba gear, you do it on cave tech gear, my opinion is you dont swoop tris they are not made for that and ts very unsafe.
Issue #282: January 2005: 12/20/04 of skydiving explains the swooping and where i get my points. i watch the skyquest, the lake wales swoop competition and the z hills one and have many friends who swoop, i know a bit about it but i dont swoop.

how many times do i see a guy with like 40 jumps say " hey did you see me, i did a 90 and almost swooped ill do it lower next time" i am like listen that canopy isnt made to do that safely, i say read that article in skydiving. they think they are ok on a big canopy and no harm, but if they do it too low they have no recover with that 7 cell and the loading. so i dont want these new dudes even trying to swoop!!!!!!! I know enough about swooping to tell them hell no!!!!!!

Cliff from aerodyne is where i am getting the penatration arguments. also arent the tris bigger then they are by way of measurments or am i wrong about that?

yes holding and running i know you all that, dont think i know that at 280 jumps and 120 in the military??? i fly cam also and when the tandem pulls thats when i track and open so my credibilty is how i alsways make it back to the dz time and time again, got it on cam, but its a credit to the 175. its not a hard canopy to master very user friendly very forgiving. the aff program is fine and address those simple canopy rulses and princibles its not really that hard and things it is not hard to land the tri it doesnt take 100 jumps to perfect it

Yeah your way right about the 9 cells and their glide( i have very few jumps on 9 cells ) but i cant tell the guy about a safire or any other 9 cell, see i only know tri's
see i am responcible. i can land on the peas 8 of 10 times and if i miss its only by a few feet again its not just my skill its an easy canopy, anyone can do it. we have 50 jumper's landing on the pease with the tri.
I wonder if i would have went to a 9 cell had i had more experience with them i am sure they are better then my tri. but tri's ae all i know and it works great for me. by all means if there is something better and safer out there someone tell this guy.

i lnad the small tris ok no injuries so that establishes my ability i just dont like the quick ride i cant relax up there and i just dont like the speed its my choice. but i nailed the landing on it. i just dont like it, not everyone wants to down size and fly super fast, i am not that brave any way. and i have no desire to swoop. also

on my openings i dont care about what it plays i am sharing my experience. and i have jumped 3 different 160 and rolled the tail tucked the nose everything they open fine but my 175 opens the best for me. again i am sharing my experience i am not talking facts, i am sure there are better canopys but again i can only share about my tri. i also found out when i packed this guys 190 so he could make a load that not everyone likes a snival. he likes his openings fast. so thats funny but true, me i love the snival.

the tri is soooooooooooooooo easy to pack small and i know folks who jam it in the bag and it opens again very!!!!!! forgiving canopy to fly and pack!!!!

again yes you have more experince then me and know more but i film aff students and our dz has tris and the new jumpers rent the many tris we have and i see it timee and time again very easy canopy to land, plus you know more then me but i jump the tri for 250 jumps, you dont have that many on a tri you probubly jump a very advanced canopy, so i can only speek for tris my real world jumping them and our dz jumps rental and student tri's exclusively. i have many tapes of landings ( booring huh )

good point about the downsizing true. but tri progression is not that hard and not drastic. if someon leaes a 175 tri for a 160 something else that could be dangerous.

Now tell me when did you down size and what did you fly from start to now whats your progressin be honest. did you jump the same size at 20 jumps that you did at 50??? i think your a highly skilled canopy pilot who progressed very quickly an started swooping early and you an awesome canopy flyer. me i stayed on the tris with training wheels till now. so triathlon canopy progressiion downsizing is not complicated and there is little difference between 175 and 1690- at his weight. our dz whould have put him on a 190 for aff. you may not like that but havent seen anyone hurt in over two years.

ok again you keep line by line cutting up my advice gets a bit agravating!!!!
( the hey it turns faster and is more responcive )is a warning!!!!!!!! not an advocacy. come on man do you complain about your wifes cooking like that. i meen your mostly right but your cutting hairs with some of your points. i have jumped from 30,000 ft to 500 and was a static line jumpmaster so i would say i know safety and wouldnt tell someone something to get themse selves hurt.

Ok here is where i totally disagree with you i have seen soooooooooooo many low jump flyers try to low turn we are always chewing someone out for that. they do it all the time!!!!!! at 3 dz's i jump!!!!!! they will do stupid things out of ingnorence!!!!!!!!! a half breaked turn is very important to practice flat turns are very safe and s turns also needed to fly the tri properly and i was tought them in aff!!! OH YEAH HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU SAID TO SOMEONE NEW LANDING " FLARE ALLTHE WAY!!!!! HOLD IT " they dont flare all the way they dont realize that its so important to do that with anysize tri.

ok see you post just to argue and play the i am right game, now i know you dont pull that with your wife but trying to line by line cut my post up for this poor is just stupid if you have better advice or you know of a better canopy then tell him that. dont try to debunk every line of my post my GOD man. i land perfect my experince is on tris thats it!!! and it works for me. the only diffeence in you canopy pilotng and mine is you will be on the ground way before me and wowing the crowd, me ill land on the peas quitely annd softly and take my helmet off and film the tandem landing or something like that.

i dont have the skill level to do what you do but it doesnt take much skill level to fly a tri like i do.

i think you forgot that on the way, its not that complicated!!

if you advocate a slower canopy progression fine, just dont think that buy cutting up my postgives you any weight, i am landing just fine and its easy. i am not saying hey go fly the wingsuit with out a parachute or something.

i think your info and advice is excelant, but i am just sharring my limmted knowledge but extensive experience on tri's.

also about swooping once again ill say i dont swoop i do understand it, i am sorrounded by it daily!!!!!!! and i see young jumpers attempt stupid things daily.

i know enough about swopping to tell someone not to do it and its not safe, it takes years of jumps, training and the proper canopys.

i have a book on swooping and i understand arcs recovery ect... but the more i read and understand the more respect i have for those who do it. its not for me its fun to watch!!! again simple dont hook turn whats wrong with that advice????

hey yu love to argue let me ask you this< what about the dec skydiving magazine article about swooping? i read it is it accurate???

[airborne82nd 0]

original poster. I have tryed to share my experince with you. I am a triathlon expert lander, ha ha but its not hard to be. i only know about tri's if you down size to somethng else i dont know about that.

My advice and experinces have been sliced up all over, with good arguments and some very very petty and some other from people trying to just be agravating.

my advice the guy who cut my post and try to so called prove you shouldnt take my advice, listen read the post he is right about manythings but he is one of these guys that ag=rgues with everyone and thinks his way is the only way. plus he complicates the triathlons beyond reality. then he thinks new jumpers dont try hook turns and stupid things and that every instructor is good and the expereinced guys none of them are hypocrites. thats not true.

the triathlon is very easy and forgiving, but read his post he is smart and knows way more then i about the subject of canopy porgression then i ever could. and even though he argue with a rock about an ant hill he meens well and has great advice and arguments.

try to see through his petty argueing and get to the meat of hispost and the technical aspect of what he is saying.

again he is a pro i am not i have 250 landings on a tri but thats not bragging thats just the truth!!

[MarkM 0]

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the triathlon is very easy and forgiving

If I had been loading my Tri 160 at 1.2 I wouldn't have walked away from jump 90 last summer. It still very easy to get in over your head no matter what the canopy.

[slotperfect 7]

1) You are giving advice to a jumper with 20 jumps on which canopy he should buy, and you have absolutely no idea how he flies a canopy. This is a very dangerous thing to do.

2) While you apparently have a considerable amount of jumps on the Triathlon series, you make some assumptions that are frankly incorrect. Telling a jumper with 20 jumps that a 160 flies the same as a 220 only faster is again VERY dangerous advice, and is quite wrong. A 160 anything flies much differently than a 220.

3) When, as you say, things fall within your experience, you are certainly free to comment on them here. The issue is who you are conveying information to and how they will use it. Even with my experience level I would never recommend a wing loading of 1.2 to 1 for anyone with 20 jumps, nor would I make any specific canopy recommendations to a low experience jumper I have never seen fly a canopy. That is why so many of us point people to their instructors or canopy coaches on their DZ that have seen or can intentionally watch them fly their canopy.

4) You need to learn to control your temper and remain objective when you post. Your conduct here in this thread is NOT welcome in this forum. Personal attacks are not permitted ANYWHERE in these forums. Take a week off from here and cool your jets.

Arrive Safely

John

[alan 1]

airborne82nd
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Your replies, experience, opinions and advice carry exactly the same weight as your profile.

alan

[slotperfect 7]

Paulie,

First of all you are doing well by starting early in gathering information about your first rig. There are some great articles here on buying your first rig that you will find helpful. I will say don't be in a hurry . . . the good deal you found will turn into another good deal when you are ready to start jumping your own gear. The classifieds here on dropzone.com are excellent.

Second, I strongly recommend that for the time being you ask one or two of the instructors you are comfortable with to watch your landings and give you some coaching.

After you have taken in their knowledge, I suggest you pay for some professional canopy coaching. If your profile is correct, there is excellent coaching available on your home DZ. From the Crosskeys website:

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Canopy Coaching
Heath Richardson, 2003 World Champion of Canopy Piloting, will be offering canopy flight instruction for all skill levels. Instruction will consist of one on one air coaching as well as hop and pops and video debriefing. Classroom instruction and ground school regarding flight characteristics, approaches and safety will be discussed

Also, looking at the Skydive Crosskeys Bulletin Board, Scott Miller will be there July 30 & 31 teaching his Canopy Piloting Course. I highly recommend him, having gone through his course myself. It was so excellent that I plan to do it again when he's in North Carolina this year, with my new canopy.

As far as taking advice given here on these boards, all of us need to reserve good judgement in applying it. Bill von Novak wrote a great post here talking specifically about that.

If you ever get to North Carolina, look me up - I am happy to watch your landings and coach you for free.

Edited to add: there are some excellent articles on canopy flight and performance on the PD Website. I recommend you digest them one at a time, re-reading as much as necessary. They contain a wealth of good information. Also, if you choose to attend Scott Miller's course in July, these documents will prepare you well. He used to be a PD Test Jumper and uses a lot of the same concepts in his training.

Arrive Safely

John