Opinions on the Student Icon please.

[Tonto 1]

Our DZ recently purchased 2 Student Icons.

After about 3 months, I'm not impressed and take my AFF students out on the older PISA "Naro" harness.

A few things I've noticed - and don't like.

1. The ICON flaps, both main and reserve, seldom stay closed, even on the ground.

2. The AFF left side main deployment device should be removed. It's a simple time trap that will eat time when you don't have it.

3. The cypres cannot be checked when the rig is being worn by the student.

4. I don't like the adjustable lift webs. We operate in dry, dusty conditions and the harness cannot be checked for wear without disassembly.

5. There are no handles on the legstraps for AFF. This was an option I enjoyed on the Naro.

What I do like.

The inspection window on the reserve flap. If you do get it to close - it's an awefull shame having to open it again.

Anyone else have any thoughts? Any suggestions on other companies student harnesses, what you've used, what you're happy with, features you enjoyed, etc?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[riggerrob 613]

We have had great results with Sidewinder Student rigs. Flying High builds them as tough as their earlier Bullet harness/containers. Large numbers of faded, frayed and filthy Bullets are still hauling students "back in the hills."
I also have Student NARO and Student Javelins in my loft right now.
The Student NAROs are in pretty good shape, but most of them need new reserve pin covers because their clear plastic cracked. Fortunately NARO reserve pin covers are only Velcroed on so it will be easy to exchange pin covers, as soon as I sew them.
Some of the Student Javelins have been jumped long and hard, so they need new MLWs because of the recent Service Bulletin.
I have also repaired dozens of Student Teleis 1 ... a good rig, but too "busy" for my tastes. Fortunately Telesis 2 is much simpler.
I definitely prefer AADs that can be checked while students are fully dressed.
My DZO and I disagree about clear pin covers. I like the ease of gear checks, but he hates them because they are high wear items. Oh, wait a minute, he pays me to repair them.
Hee!
Hee!
Mind you, some rigs (Student NARO and Student Vector) have slip-in replacement plastics.

[diablopilot 2]

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My DZO and I disagree about clear pin covers.

So build them like the Sigmas. Easy replacement.


I like the MTS (Mirage) student rigs, but then I'm not an AFF JM *yet*

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[aubsmell 0]

Tonto,

I want to go through each of your points here and I also want to preface this message with the fact that through our personal conversations I understand that you do not like our company for a number or reasons that are personal to you, which I do not feel it is my job to discuss in this forum. I respect you, your experience as a skydiver/instructor and your opinions. I also realize that there is nothing that I can do to change your mind or feelings on this subject, all I can do is respect your opinions.

However, I feel that a more constructive course for your frustration with perceptions of our products and company would be to put your views to positive use in order to aid us in addressing the issues. If you feel that you have noticed things that could be done better let us know. It is quite possible that we will listen to you and go on to improve our products, which will then improve the sport of skydiving overall. Simply constantly pointing out flaws doesn’t help anyone in a positive manner.

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1. The ICON flaps, both main and reserve, seldom stay closed, even on the ground.

We have delivered over 750 Icon's to include +-100 student Icons and this is the first instance I've heard of flaps coming open in flight. I'm sure you guys often have AFF students that request video. To help our research and development team, could you please provide some video of this happening to Dave Macrae (I think you have his contact info.)

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2. The AFF left side main deployment device should be removed. It's a simple time trap that will eat time when you don't have it.

This is a system unique to the Icon Student rig. I'm wondering if you have actually deployed the main using our reserve side deployment system? I think it would surprise you. It is a very clean system; I have MULTIPLE jumps on video where the focus of the video is on this deployment sequence. It doesn’t take any longer than a standard break away BOC and immediately clears the pilot chute of the burble.

To explain a bit, when the wind catches the 3 inch cure tape that pulls out from under the Spandex BOC, it typically pulls the pocket straight up in the air, releasing the pilot chute, similar to the bridle function on a free bag. Because the spandex pouch comes off as a piece and is pulled away from the bottom of the container (also taking tension off of the pouch itself) the pilot chute is placed outside the burble when removed unlike other designs which have been shown to bounce around in the burble for a few seconds.

Quite a few container designers thoroughly looked this system over at the PIA and complemented us on the ingenuity. It wouldn't surprise me if you didn't see it showing up on other brand systems in the future (a good idea is a good idea.) In fact the Swedish military is so impressed that they are retrofitting all of their Atoms to include this system.

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3. The Cypres cannot be checked when the rig is being worn by the student.

That is an excellent point, which is why we have a design that places the control unit on the reserve top flap. This gives it a little more protection than afforded on the yoke, but it is easy to look at. It can be seen under window (you can see the prototype for this design on page 16 of the Icon Manual.) Once again, the system is not perfect but is being worked on with a few different designs coming into play. After it has been tested, reviewed, moved, altered and run through a battery of other tests we will show you the new design.

Until then, we have chosen to keep the control unit in a place that is safe, clean, and familiar to a number of designs. Albeit, it does take a few seconds to check once on the students back.

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4. I don't like the adjustable lift webs. We operate in dry, dusty conditions and the harness cannot be checked for wear without disassembly.

There are many types of adjustable adapters out there for main lift webs, some with noted failures. The reason we use this particular one is simple; it is proven. This is the same piece we use on all of our military systems, and have for years with no documented failure. It is also the same adjuster that PDF has used for 10+ years on all their military and sport adjustable harnesses (thousands of harnesses) with no documented failures. To bring the point closer to home for you the Former South African Defense force has been using this piece on their military harness since the late 1970’s, with literally hundreds of thousands of jumps on them.

This system is suited to most environments, and the few extra minutes it takes you to routinely inspect wear on the harness should be an obvious trade off for an adapter that has proven itself over time not to fail or break harnesses.

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5. There are no handles on the legstraps for AFF. This was an option I enjoyed on the Naro.

We don't list it as an option because it is not very popular, but had you asked we would have sewn handles on. In fact retrofitting your Icons by producing new leg pads for you with handles included is as easy as a phone call (contact Dave Macrae.)

In closing, I hope this post finds you well, please contact Dave about the issues you have, I am POSITIVE that we can in some way accommodate you.

Regards,


Aubrey Easterlin

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[linestretch 0]

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I like the MTS (Mirage) student rigs, but then I'm not an AFF JM *yet*

Same here on both, like the rig, and I'm not AFF.

But I thought they were RTS.

my pics & stuff!

[BlindBrick 0]

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I like the MTS (Mirage) student rigs, but then I'm not an AFF JM *yet*

Same here on both, like the rig, and I'm not AFF.

But I thought they were RTS.

You're correct. I jump an RTS and really like it. The RTS is also nice because it's certifed Category B and therefore doesn't have a weight limit and comes in a size big enough to hold a 23D 288 sf reserve. That will let you an exit weight of at least 317 pounds (might be more, but the R-Max 288 is the only big 23D reserve that I know the max weight on) without having to resort to modded tandem gear. That might seem trivial, but given the expanding waist line of America, it will eventually become an issue. As a packer and rigger, I already see it occasionally.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[diablopilot 2]

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But I thought they were RTS.

Yeah, but some days I'm just dumb.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tempest 0]

Hi Aubrey

What you are describing is a BOC system. What Tonto is talking about is a ripcord system that obviously works differently.

Could you please explain the intended operation of this ripcord system as well?

I would like to hear your and Tonto’s thoughts on this.

Thanks
Emile

[indradhanush 0]

that was goog diplomatic reply.
good one.

santhosh

life is a daring adventure or nothing at all