Reserve TSO

[bmcd308 0]

My point with all this is that I wish the manufacturers would chunk it out with a bigger dummy at a faster speed and tell us what happened instead of making vague claims like "we believe it is the strongest reserve on the market."

It is possible to get objective data about what happens at various weights and speeds. The manufacturers have that data. But instead of giving it to us, they tell us their stuff is certified under the "newest standards" (which does not mean it is any stronger than if it had been certified under the old) and imply that being certified under the newer standard somehow makes the product better or more suitable to our purposes.

Some equipment even mentions in its marketing that skydivers are reaching higher speeds than ever before. However, despite the fact that the marketing materials say that a reserve is targeted to freeflyers, it appears that they are only willing to certify the gear at 150 knots, a slow sit for some people.

Without revealing the results of drop tests at higher speeds, marketing materials that brag about the strength of the reserve canopy or its suitability to high-speed skydiving are worse than useless in terms of helping consumers of the equipment make informed decisions.

And we, as skydivers, have let that happen. It was only after I watched someone land a blown up reserve that I even started getting curious about the maximum weight and speed at which my gear was designed to operate, and it was only once I started looking for gear rated to a higher speed that I realized how difficult it is to figure out exactly what forces my gear was designed to survive.

Brent

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[Thanatos340 1]

Data Panel from my Brand New Smart 175..
Max Deployment Speed - 150 Knots
Max Exit Weight - 264 Lbs.

[Chrisky 0]

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are absolutely right and make a point worth repeating. TSO weight is not necessarily a safe weight to actually load the canopy with.

This is worth repeating, but reading this thread i find the focus to be on the question what a reserve can take on opening, not what the jumper can take on landing.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

My point with all this is that I wish the manufacturers would chunk it out with a bigger dummy at a faster speed and tell us what happened instead of making vague claims like "we believe it is the strongest reserve on the market."

It is possible to get objective data about what happens at various weights and speeds. The manufacturers have that data. But instead of giving it to us, they tell us their stuff is certified under the "newest standards" (which does not mean it is any stronger than if it had been certified under the old) and imply that being certified under the newer standard somehow makes the product better or more suitable to our purposes.

Some equipment even mentions in its marketing that skydivers are reaching higher speeds than ever before. However, despite the fact that the marketing materials say that a reserve is targeted to freeflyers, it appears that they are only willing to certify the gear at 150 knots, a slow sit for some people.

Without revealing the results of drop tests at higher speeds, marketing materials that brag about the strength of the reserve canopy or its suitability to high-speed skydiving are worse than useless in terms of helping consumers of the equipment make informed decisions.

And we, as skydivers, have let that happen. It was only after I watched someone land a blown up reserve that I even started getting curious about the maximum weight and speed at which my gear was designed to operate, and it was only once I started looking for gear rated to a higher speed that I realized how difficult it is to figure out exactly what forces my gear was designed to survive.

Brent

What is it that you don't understand? If the canopy says safe to 150 KEAS and 254 pounds exit weight it means 150 KEAS 254 pounds exit weight. Why is this so difficult to understand? Looking for a loop hole will not change the fact that exceeding these figures is foolish if not down right stupid.
Sparky

[bmcd308 0]

>>What is it that you don't understand?<<

Earlier, I did not understand what the different TSO designations meant. In fact, I was under the impression, based on reading ads for h/cs and reserves, that certification under TSO C23d meant that the gear would be rated to a higher speed than certification under TSO C23c. Now I understand that I was mistaken.


>>If the canopy says safe to 150 KEAS and 254 pounds exit weight it means 150 KEAS 254 pounds exit weight. Why is this so difficult to understand?<<

It is not difficult to understand. The problem is that until one purchases the canopy and reads the data panel, one does not know that it is rated to 150 KEAS. That information is difficult to find.


>>Looking for a loop hole will not change the fact that exceeding these figures is foolish if not down right stupid. <<

I'm not looking for a loophole, I'm looking for information in order to make an informed gear purchase decision. I do not disagree that purposefully overstressing one's gear is an invitation to disaster. But I was witness last weekend to an accidental overstressing of gear that did not end pretty.

There are those whose reaction to that incident is along the lines of "what did he expect, he deployed his reserve at 200 mph and it is only rated to 150 knots. He should have bought a stronger reserve."

So in order not to occupy an adjoining room in the hospital, I started looking for a stronger reserve than my current one. I go to the manufacturers' websites, and they say things like "Modern skydiving involves higher speeds and bigger people under smaller canopies. A premature deployment in a head down under previous designs could result in a trip to the hosiptal or morgue. So we designed the new Super Tuff HD 200 with these higher weights and speeds in mind. When we designed it, our GOAL was to design a 200 square foot canopy that would survive a 300 mph opening with a 300 pound person under it. Because freeflying is the NEWEST type of skydiving, we certified it under TSO C23d, which is the NEWEST certification for canopies. The Super Tuff 200 is made for when things go bad."

Then you look at the Super Tuff 200, and it shows a max weight of 254 lbs. on the web site. Fine, you think, 254 lbs is loading at 1.25, which is probably all my ankles could take landing it.

There is no way to figure out its max speed until you see the label, because when you e-mail the manufacturer, you get a link to the website. Then you buy one and it is placarded for 254 lbs at 150 KEAS.

My point is that if any reserve is REALLY stronger than the others, I want it. I understand if a mfg. only wants to put a 254 lb. 150 KEAS label on it. But if they are dropping them faster, it would be good to know whether or not they are surviving.

I know there aren't any loopholes. Skydiving deals with absolutes. If you hit the ground going too fast, things are going to break. If enough things break such that your brain does not get enough oxygen, you die. I know that it happens. But we all want to stack the odds in our favor - that's why we strap the gear on in the first place.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[mjosparky 3]

Go with 254 pounds and 150 KEAS, everything else is marketing.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Gatzo 0]

Do the specifications to the tests specify at which altitude the droptests should be done? Does it not matter if 300lbs/180kts is done at 1000ft or 5000ft?

[mjosparky 3]

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Do the specifications to the tests specify at which altitude the droptests should be done? Does it not matter if 300lbs/180kts is done at 1000ft or 5000ft?

The last TSO to reference altitude was TSO-C23b, and several of the drop tests were to be "from a altitude of not more than 500 feet."
Unless the test requires a higher drop, I prefer 500 to 1000 feet. It is much easier to spot a dummy under a steerable canopy from down there.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 562]

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Do the specifications to the tests specify at which altitude the drop tests should be done? Does it not matter if 300lbs/180kts is done at 1000ft or 5000ft?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Altitudes specified in TSO standards are in reference to ABOVE GROUND LEVEL and most aeronautical engineering standards are based on sea level performance.
Since higher altitudes ABOVE SEA LEVEL equal higher air speeds - which tear up parachutes much quicker - the vast majority of drop tests are done at DZs near sea level.
Heavy weight, high speed drop tests are usually done with weighted dummies dropped from airplanes screaming along at 300 feet AGL. Only the last few manned drop tests (i.e. demonstrate cutaway) are done from altitudes between 3,000 and 12,000 feet AGL.

[bmcd308 0]

A friend of mine just bought a Precision r-Max 168. Its data panel lists a max operating weight and speed of 205 pounds and 150 knots.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[mjosparky 3]

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A friend of mine just bought a Precision r-Max 168. Its data panel lists a max operating weight and speed of 205 pounds and 150 knots.

Brent

And your point is?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

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A friend of mine just bought a Precision r-Max 168. Its data panel lists a max operating weight and speed of 205 pounds and 150 knots.

Sounds like a manufactures recomended loading. What TSO catagory is it rated under? (I know.)

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[bmcd308 0]

That its placarded weight and speed are essentially the same as others. The initial question was whether anyone rates their gear to a higher speed than anyone else.

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www.jumpelvis.com

[bmcd308 0]

>>What TSO catagory is it rated under? (I know.) <<

I do not know. It is brand new, so I'll guess 23D.

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