The right sized pilot chute?

[fraschc 0]

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could you reply back after you have tried it with the results. also do a hop and pop to see how the low speed deployment differs. Thanks

You got it. Stay tuned
Courtney

[Shark 0]

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could you reply back after you have tried it with the results. also do a hop and pop to see how the low speed deployment differs. Thanks

You got it. Stay tuned
Courtney

Could ya provide video, too???!

[mjosparky 3]

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could you reply back after you have tried it with the results. also do a hop and pop to see how the low speed deployment differs. Thanks

You got it. Stay tuned
Courtney

Could ya provide video, too???!

Would you like butter on your popcorn?
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Shark 0]

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Would you like butter on your popcorn?

Real butter and a large Coke.

[mjosparky 3]

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Would you like butter on your popcorn?

Real butter and a large Coke.

You got it buddy.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[extreme 0]

I have Cobalt competition 150 and if you take a look at Atair website, you can see that for my size of canopie recommended P/C is 24".

I believe every manufacturer should have tested their canopies and recommend P/C size for them.

Blue skies

[diablopilot 2]

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I believe every manufacturer should have tested their canopies and recommend P/C size for them.

Why?

For the millionth time, the pilot chute is a container component. The manufacture of the container has a better understanding of what is compatible with their equipment?

Would you switch freebags and Reserve P/C's?

A properly built collapsible pilot chute should have little to no affect on the opening of a parachute, or it's flight.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[3ringheathen 0]

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For the millionth time, the pilot chute is a container component. The manufacture of the container has a better understanding of what is compatible with their equipment?

You can state it a million more times, it's still a gross oversimplification of the issue.

From the perspective of a container manufacturer the pilot chute size matters for two reasons that I'm aware of:
1) The pc and pc pouch need to be compatible. That is, you want the pilot chute to be securely held in place prior to deployment.
2) The pc needs to reliably generate enough force to pull the pin/open the container.

The 9 year old Javelin I recently sold held a 24" pc snugly even though the pouch is probably getting close to being due for replacement. I'd be very surprised if the pouch on most new gear is too loose for a 24" pc.
In the unlikely event that the pouch is too big, swapping it out for a smaller one is easy.

I doubt that there is single container at my dz that isn't compatible with a 24" pilot chute based upon the above criteria. Given that, what makes the container manufacturers one size fits all recomendation more valid than the canopy manufacturers? Or for that matter, the pilot chute manufacturer that recommends a specific size pc for a specific size canopy?

In contrast, from the perspective of a canopy manufacturer , pilot chute size matters in that:
It needs to reliably extract the canopy from the open container without causing line dump.

Bill Booth gave specific parameters to help one assess if they're pilot chute is the right size to address these concerns.

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Would you switch freebags and Reserve P/C's?

This isn't a particularly relevant analogy.
There are TSO issues with this that may or may not have anything to do with safety.

There is a lot less variation in the design of reserves than of mains, so it's not surprising that one pc would work for all of them. They're almost all open nosed, seven cell canopies designed to open as fast as possible.

Further, since the reserve pc and freebag are sewn together into one functional unit, the container specific design of the free bag is the primary issue, not the size/type of reserve pilot chute.

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A properly built collapsible pilot chute should have little to no affect on the opening of a parachute, or it's flight.

Off of the top of my head:
Bill Booth, Performance Designs, ATAIR, and Icarus all disagree with you.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[smurf 0]

A large canopy needs a large pc to stretch the lines in the same amount of time(0.4 - 0.8 seconds according to mr Booth) it takes to stretch the lines of a small canopy with a small pc, or?
All pc's are capable of pulling the pin on any rig, regardless of brand?
If this is true, shouldn't the pc follow the main canopy?

>erlend :)

[diablopilot 2]

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It needs to reliably extract the canopy from the open container without causing line dump.

It doesn't exist. If you want proof check out the Berger bag Sunpath is testing, or you own reserve.

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This isn't a particularly relevant analogy.

Oh but it is. It just doesn't fit the contrary side of the argument so it's often dismissed.

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There is a lot less variation in the design of reserves than of mains, so it's not surprising that one pc would work for all of them. They're almost all open nosed, seven cell canopies designed to open as fast as possible.

Yes, however there are many different sizes. One of the criteria for different sizes main P/C's offered by several canopy manufacturers is the size. Smaller size of the same planform, smaller P/C, right? Tell me why that shouldn't apply to the reserve.

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Bill Booth, Performance Designs, ATAIR, and Icarus all disagree with you.

That still isn't enough of a factor to change my mind. From actual experience I will tell you that switching sizes of P/C's has not changed openings on any canopy I've owned to warrent not using the manufacturers recomended size.

If you're getting hammered because of your P/C, it's probably not built right.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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That still isn't enough of a factor to change my mind. From actual experience I will tell you that switching sizes of P/C's has not changed openings on any canopy I've owned to warrent not using the manufacturers recomended size.

I 2nd that. I've experimented with various pilot chute sizes and NOT ONE has changed the speed of the opening. All they've changed is the speed the bag comes off my back.

Blue ones,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[mjosparky 3]

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From the perspective of a container manufacturer the pilot chute size matters for two reasons that I'm aware of:
1) The pc and pc pouch need to be compatible. That is, you want the pilot chute to be securely held in place prior to deployment.
2) The pc needs to reliably generate enough force to pull the pin/open the container.

A 15" PC will pull the pin/open the container. And a pouch made of spandex, in good condition and properly installed will hold a 15" PC.
The critical factor is if the PC will produce enough drag to pull the bag out of the container. Larger canopies weight more and the PC must overcome the corner design of some containers.
Hell, at one time your "D" bag came with the canopy, not the container. That didn't make it right.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[scottjaco 0]

I just tested my new 24' pilot chute w/ my Sabre 150.

I did 3 jumps....no problems. Everything felt the same, deployment happend almost immediately after releasing the pilot chute. It wasn't any faster or slower than the old 28' pilot chute that came with my Container.

The black hackey handle sure gave my rig a nice facelift, a big improvement over that bright orange PVC pipe!

[3ringheathen 0]

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All pc's are capable of pulling the pin on any rig, regardless of brand?
If this is true, shouldn't the pc follow the main canopy?

Be wary of absolute statements, they are almost always wrong. That's what gets some of the other posters in this thread in trouble:

Their first hand experience has been that X is true, and then they turn around and assert that X is always true.

Having said that, it's very unlikely that a 24" pc recomended by a canopy maker will pose a problem regardless of the official recomendation of the container maker, and it might very well improve your openings.

Or it might not, as it's but one of many factors to consider.

-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[3ringheathen 0]

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It (line dump) doesn't exist. If you want proof check out the Berger bag Sunpath is testing, or you own reserve.

Both have locking stows, which prevent line dump.

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This isn't a particularly relevant analogy.

Oh but it is. It just doesn't fit the contrary side of the argument so it's often dismissed.

I can't argue with that logic.

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Smaller size of the same planform, smaller P/C, right? Tell me why that shouldn't apply to the reserve.

Because you want a reserve to open as quickly as possible.
If, for some odd reason, you *wanted* a nice, snivelly reserve opening, one of the many things you could change would be the pilot chute size.

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Bill Booth, Performance Designs, ATAIR, and Icarus all disagree with you.

That still isn't enough of a factor to change my mind. From actual experience I will tell you that switching sizes of P/C's has not changed openings on any canopy I've owned to warrent not using the manufacturers recomended size.

I don't doubt you at all.
However, *your* experience, is comparatively limited, as is mine.

The fact that you haven't jumped any combinations of gear where the pilot chute effects opening speed does not mean that smaller PCs can't be a factor for some combinations of gear.

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If you're getting hammered because of your P/C, it's probably not built right.

You seem to contradict yourself.
If line dump doesn't exist, and PC size doesn't matter, than how can an incorrectly built pilot chute cause hard openings?
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[diablopilot 2]

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Both have locking stows, which prevent line dump.

The Berger bag doesn't have any locking stows. A conventional D-bag does.

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You seem to contradict yourself.
If line dump doesn't exist, and PC size doesn't matter, than how can an incorrectly built pilot chute cause hard openings?

I try not to. Line dump doesn't exist IMO (and other peoples). Both bag/canopy dump and hard openings do.

A poorly built kill line P/C can cause hard openings because after it's done the job it's suposed to (pull the canopy to linestretch and open the bag) if it doesn't collapse properly it CAN cause center cell strip, thus presenting the cell mouths cleanly to the relative wind too early in the opening sequence, thus rendering the slider less effective. So can a standard pilot chute.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[3ringheathen 0]

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A 15" PC will pull the pin/open the container.

No ones recomending a 15" pc anyway, but how sure are you that this is true?
A 15" pc has less than 1/3 the surface area of a 28" pc.

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The critical factor is if the PC will produce enough drag to pull the bag out of the container. Larger canopies weight more and the PC must overcome the corner design of some containers.

Are you saying that it takes more force to pull the bag out of the tight corners of an open container than it does to open the container itself, or to lift the weight of the canopy?

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Hell, at one time your "D" bag came with the canopy, not the container. That didn't make it right.

Nor did it necessarily make it wrong. Regardless, that's ancient history, even if you are old enough to remember it.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[3ringheathen 0]

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The Berger bag doesn't have any locking stows. A conventional D-bag does.

My mistake. I had a similar discussion with someone else, it turned out that the stowless bag they were talking about had locking stows.

The Berger bag doesn't. Could you describe it? Does it have tuck tabs, velcro, or something? What keeps the bag closed?

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You seem to contradict yourself.
If line dump doesn't exist, and PC size doesn't matter, than how can an incorrectly built pilot chute cause hard openings?

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A poorly built kill line P/C can cause hard openings because after it's done the job it's suposed to (pull the canopy to linestretch and open the bag) if it doesn't collapse properly it CAN cause center cell strip, thus presenting the cell mouths cleanly to the relative wind too early in the opening sequence, thus rendering the slider less effective. So can a standard pilot chute.

Yes that can be a problem, however I've jumped properly made collapsible PCs in 28" and 24" and noticed significant differences in openings between the two.

YMMV.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[diablopilot 2]

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My mistake. I had a similar discussion with someone else, it turned out that the stowless bag they were talking about had locking stows.

Sparky has one like that.

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The Berger bag doesn't. Could you describe it? Does it have tuck tabs, velcro, or something? What keeps the bag closed?

Tuck tabs. Buddy of mine built one. Worked well. I just don't want to retrain myself to beable to pack it fast. and I don't have a problem with rubberbands.

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YMMV.

Ain't that the truth!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[3ringheathen 0]

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Tuck tabs. Buddy of mine built one. Worked well. I just don't want to retrain myself to beable to pack it fast. and I don't have a problem with rubberbands.

Wouldn't the tuck tabs perform essentially the same function as locking stows?

That is keep the pack job in the bag, with the slider all the way up until line stretch.

If so, what was the absence of locking stows supposed to prove?
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[diablopilot 2]

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Wouldn't the tuck tabs perform essentially the same function as locking stows?

That's the idea.

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If so, what was the absence of locking stows supposed to prove?

The concept of a stowless bag.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[3ringheathen 0]

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Wouldn't the tuck tabs perform essentially the same function as locking stows?

That's the idea.

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If so, what was the absence of locking stows supposed to prove?

The concept of a stowless bag.

So what was your point when you said:
"It (line dump) doesn't exist. If you want proof check out the Berger bag Sunpath is testing, or you own reserve."?

If the tuck tabs on the Berger bag perform the same function as locking stows on a traditional bag, how does the use of the Berger bag prove that line dump doesn't exist?!
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[diablopilot 2]

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If the tuck tabs on the Berger bag perform the same function as locking stows on a traditional bag, how does the use of the Berger bag prove that line dump doesn't exist?!

I think you have line dump and canopy dump confused.

Line dump is the suposed stripping of all the lines from their stows before the lines have been put under tension. It does not cause hard openings, as proven by the Berger bag.

Canopy dump is the bag opening and releasing the canopy prior to the lines being at tension. Canopy dump can occur when the locking stow (or tab) fails. It produces some outstandingly bad openings.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 3]

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No ones recomending a 15" pc anyway, but how sure are you that this is true?
A 15" pc has less than 1/3 the surface area of a 28" pc

Yes, I know this to be true. If the container was closed without the use of tools, a 10" PC will pull the pin. (Source, the man that invented the curved pin)

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Are you saying that it takes more force to pull the bag out of the tight corners of an open container than it does to open the container itself, or to lift the weight of the canopy?

Pulling the bag out of the tight corners is the same thing as lifting the weight of the canopy, since the canopy is in the bag. And yes it takes more force to lift the bag with the canopy in it then it does to pull the pin. And the reason for your skepticism of this fact would be..........?

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Nor did it necessarily make it wrong. Regardless, that's ancient history, even if you are old enough to remember it

Yes it did make it wrong. How did the canopy manufacture know the size and shape of the container that the canopy was going in. And yes it is ancient history and yes I am old enough to remember it.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[BASE813 0]

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Line dump is the suposed stripping of all the lines from their stows before the lines have been put under tension. It does not cause hard openings, as proven by the Berger bag.

I would say line dump is when the lines have deployed before being put under tension and the canopy starts to deploy before tension on those lines... thus tailpocket stow, locking stow, tuck tabs - whatever enable the lines to tension before canopy deployment.... is this what you are calling canopy dump?