Opinions on Pull Out deployment system.

[Empadinha 0]

Hi,

I just bought a power Racer that has a Pull Out deployment system. As I don't see too many of them here in Brazil I would like to know what do you guys think about the Pull Out system. I personally didn't like it at the beginning, because I was experiencing some delay. I talked to the previous owner and he told me hold the handle until the wind yank it out of your hand. Since then no more delays.

Regards,

Empadinha.

When in Danger or in doubt run in circles scream and shout.

[diablopilot 2]

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I talked to the previous owner and he told me hold the handle until the wind yank it out of your hand. Since then no more delays.

That will work. I believe a "pull out" system used by a "throw out" has a good chance of pointing out a bad habit may jumpers have and get away with. It's common to see "throw out" jumpers casualy flick the pilotchute into the air after clearing the pouch. A healthy "throw" should acompany extraction.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[payback462 0]

it should also be pointed out that, while you should hold on firmly, you shouldnt have a death grip on it, because the PC WILL win that tug of war match and it WILL hurt!

not that i know from personal experience or anything

as far as pullout- i personally prefer it, but a well maintained, and a well designed rig with either system would be just as good for me!

[JeffD 0]

I was taught. "Treat it like its 5000degrees" Palm skyward, and throw it away from your body (sideways).

But like your friend says usually it will get pulled out of your hand by the RelativeWind. if not, by throwing it as far away from you as possible you are getting it into much cleaner wind, and creating less of a chance to get the bridle tangled up on your body/gear.

I started on it and I like.

[Empadinha 0]

Thanks for the input guys, I must admit that I had the throw-out habit at the beginning.

I hold the handle just enough to let it easily slip from my hand when the PC inflates.

Blue Skies.

When in Danger or in doubt run in circles scream and shout.

[hookitt 0]

I've jumped throw out for a few thousand jumps. In 2000 I switched to pull out. Unless I'm going to fly a wingsuit, I'm not turning back.

Pull outs are simple, just pull to arm extension and let go. No need to throw really hard or let the wind yank it out of your hand.

Have a good weekend.
Tim

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[GravityGirl 0]

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I talked to the previous owner and he told me hold the handle until the wind yank it out of your hand. Since then no more delays.

I was told the same thing. After several hundred jumps of letting it get yanked out, I developed a "sack" of fluid in my shoulder from the constant friction.

I agree with what some of the others say here. Give it a good healthy flick (throw). But don't hang on to it until it is yanked out. That puts undue wear and tear on your body. If you are in the sport for the long haul, you will learn to preserve your body for the good stuff!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[fpmurphy 0]

I have a Javelin Odyssey TJN 0.5 manufactured in September of last year and it's got a pull-out deployment system. I'm based in Ireland and there's only 2 of us with this type of deployment here. So far I love the system completely but with one exception. In the beginning I found that the PC would pull the handle ou tof my grip but not since about my 5th jump on the gear, I would always have to just drop the handle. About a fortnight ago though over the space of about 3 jumps the handle was whipped from my grip like in the beginning, and now things have gone back to me dropping it after I fully outstretch my arm.

Any Suggestions????

[skydiverek 55]

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Pull outs are simple, just pull to arm extension and let go. No need to throw really hard or let the wind yank it out of your hand.

Plus, the chances of having pilotchute-in-tow or hoseshoe are GREATLY reduced as compared to throw-out.

[Chrisky 0]

Funny, we just had a poll and discussion on this at the Stammtisch (german forum).
Badlock posted this info (of which' source i have no idea). Sorry i have no detailed source info, but i think the issues pointed out in the correspondence make sense no matter what.
If anyone has a more detailed info or knowledge of the subject, feel free to correct or criticize me at any time.
So here it goes:

The following is a series of letters regarding pull-out pilot chutes.

Hello TK: (at the Relative Workshop)

I don't know what your opinion is about pullout pilot chutes, but here is
mine, in response to a question regarding rig conversion.

I, personally, am against pull out's. (20+ years, jumper, pilot, rigger)
As predicted, I have seen (watched) two near fatalities as the result of pullouts. Both were main-reserve entanglements. In both cases the PC's were held long enough to allow the bridle to half hitch around the pilot
chute causing a PC malfunction. When I say long enough, I mean as short as maybe one half second or less! This may not seam very long, but consider the action/speed of the bridle being out next to the inflated
PC. (perceived malfunction rate?)

With a hand deploy PC you are holding the apex of the PC. There is only a horseshoe starting at your hand, and ending at the closing flap. When you release the PC the total horseshoe remains taught until pilot chute
inflation. I have held on to my hand deploy for five seconds on several jumps with no problem. Would you want to do that with a pullout?

As far as concern about the pin not being pulled? A 28" pilot chute has at least 70 lbs. of drag at 120 MPH. What's the likely hood of a misrouted bridle on a late-model rig?

Buy the way, in both cases of near fatalities, both jumpers pulled their reserves around 1000 feet. In both cases there were entanglements with the main-bag that deployed at reserve pull. They both got reserve
openings below 300 feet! On one, "garbage of the main" was pushed down to the jumper by the reserve slider, blinding the jumper! Sounds like fun time, HA! (bonus days included) I was witness to both of these
jumps!

Dave Brownell

Mesa/Eloy AZ

Dave,

I'm with you on all counts. Here's a fact or two you can add to your list.

We've done a lot of tests to determine the strength of the average jumper in the pull-out configuration.
The strongest guys in our shop were not half as strong as the drag of a standard hand-deploy pilot chute. No contest there.

In an ideal world, a hand-deploy is always thrown, and should not be held onto unless you discover someone over your back at that very moment. But when you must hold it, the worst that can happen is that the drag on the bridle pulls the pin. (which is what you get on every pull-out deployment!) If you're stable, the bagged canopy will stay on your back. (Dave, all of the maladies you mention are absolutely true.)

With a pull-out pilot chute, you don't get the great, aggressive throw capability of the hand-deploy because you loose ½ of the throwing stroke just trying to pull the pin out of the locking loop. Without a good throw, the pilot chute could end up on your back in the burble. I personally have about 300 jumps on a pull-out system and on many of these jumps, I experienced pilot chute hesitations. I went back to hand-deploy
and have not had a hesitation since.

Dave, you're absolutely correct when it comes to two canopy entanglements. Here's how the scenario goes: They pull the handle and pin and then let go of the PC. The burble sucks the PC onto their back.
They fail to look over their shoulder hard enough so the PC stays there. Eventually, and usually quite low, they decide to pull the reserve. Both canopies will usually deploy one after the other.

And here's another problem. Most jumpers with pull-out systems loose their handle at least once during their career. Some don't ever find it on that given jump and end up pulling their reserve. Some don't pull
anything. Before the days of AAD's, a significant number of jumpers bounced, Jeannie McCombs being one of the notables.

I'm sure I could go on an on about the virtues of H/D over P/O, but life is short and so is the list of jumpers using the PULL-OUT System.

Talk to you later,

TK

Edited to add: Having jumped a Pullout a couple of jumps myself, i prefer a throw out, as i see the deployment sequence of PC->Bridle->Pin->Dbag uninterupted. And from habit, of course.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[GeeeeeeFly 0]

I have a pull out currently, and have put around 300-400 jumps on it. I have had difficulties with it but nothing that has resulted in a reserve ride.
3rd jump with it, floating pud.
I have had a couple of PC's float on my back in a horse shoe mal, but I would simply look over my shoulder and sure enough the bag comes off my back.
It's all personal preference.
I have had problems with throw outs as well.
With experience comes better excuses...

G

"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"

[Chrisky 0]

Well, i never had a PC in tow, hesitation or anything with my throwout yet (in 300+ jumps). A horseshoe mal is usually the dbag and bridle out with the PC still in some way attached to the container, so you can't get rid of a horseshoe by looking over your shoulder...
Probably you meant a PC hesitation, where the PC is caught in the burble.
I will not say it can't happen with a throwout, the point for my decision to stick to Throwout (and recommending it to others) is that if you pull the throwout out to the side like you are supposed to, you always pull the PC INTO the relative wind and not into the burble, whereas the PC on a pullout system is located pretty much inside or on the rim of the burble. This, imho, increases the possibility of the PC being caught there causing a PC hesitation.

And for me, that is a situation out of the ordinary deployment sequence. Extraordinary situations at pulltime, no matter how easily cleared, are an unnecessary stress factor and decrease my safety during the jump.
Summing up, as i see it, you can have problems on Pullout systems by their design, and problems on throwout systems by not throwing out properly.
One thing can be easily changed, the other is there to stay (or be modded by a rigger...).

But right, personal preference. I just can't see any advantages over a throwout.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[jrcrackers 0]

can't see any benifit. A little cleaner looking but not orht the effort

[cruzlite 0]

The idea of a pull out has appealed to me...
(primarily by eliminating pin lock-pc in tow)

Have to listen to Da-Man on this one though;
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Quote; (from: post in thread by; rendezvous, [Boc vs Pull Out] March 25, 2002)

"I have read this entire thread and must say that the pros and cons of this subject have been very well covered. However, perhaps I can add some insight. As the patent holder on both the pull out and throw out pilot chute systems, I have listened to customers jump stories about both for the past 25 years. Hand deploy pilot chutes had a lot of problems in the early days. But these problems have mostly disappeared as the result of design improvements like the Spandex pouch, the bottom of container (BOC) location (borrowed from the pull out), and covered bridle paths. However, the same old problems with the pullout, such as lost handles and no-pulls due to improper packing still remain. Plus, while the throw out allows you to actually throw the pilot chute into the clean air outside the burble, the pull out forces you to release the pilot chute inside the burble. To get hesitation free deployments, pull out jumpers have to momentarily alter their body position to break up the burble. On small, highly loaded ellipticals, this can cause line twists, which can become malfunctions. Perhaps this is why a good 95% of my customers, including me, jump throwouts.
I would say that the jumping public has already settled this debate. Both systems work when correctly maintained, packed, and deployed. However, people just seem to have fewer problems with today's manifestation of the throw out."

(Bill Booth)

[RMURRAY 1]

I have always wanted a pull out - clean and simple. However, never had my rig converted for two reasons....throw outs work fine and pullouts are less popular and packers (for me, only at a 4 way camp) can pack you a mal - it has happened.

rm

[seal_S49 0]

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just pull to arm extension and let go. No need to throw really hard or let the wind yank it out of your hand.

I'm glad somebody finally said this after all the recent pull-out bashing posts. Throwing any hand deployed pilot chute is like throwing a feather in a hurricane. Either of these objects will go with the relative wind no matter how hard you throw them in any other direction. Pulling the pud to full arm extension insures its exposure to good air, and releasing it promptly insures that the bag won't escape ahead of the bridle. Many years ago I was incorrectly taught to forcefully throw the pud away from my body and found that most people tend to let go if it at the half-way point (bent elbow) as they follow through to arm extension with an empty hand. Like the feather analogy, the PC will never get any farther horizontally from your body than the release point, and it can get sucked into your burble.

Like any piece of equipment, the pull-out must be properly packed and deployed in the air to do it's job. Since I have control over both of these, I'll never have a reason to own any other type of main deployment system. In my years in the sport, I haven't read of a fatality that resulted from a horseshoe or PC in tow on a pull-out system. In spite of greater popularity and all the supporting "opinions," the hard evidence doesn't support the throw-out as being superior.

Stay alive!
S49