f1shlips 2 #26 March 17, 2004 After you cock it, make a loop in the middle of a bridle and tie a knot with the loop. That way you know that you've cocked it, it cant slip uncocked and even if you pack it with the knot it'll still open like its supposed to.-- drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #27 March 17, 2004 I like this Idea .. Seems like it would be ok as long as knot is below pin... anybody??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #28 March 17, 2004 Um, yeah, but if I read you right this knot will also prevent the pilot chute from collapsing after it has done its job. Maybe I don't understand your explanation. If you are that worried about the collapsible PC, you can easily switch it out for a non-collapsible one. Then you don't have to worry about it (past routine maintance of course). - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1shlips 2 #29 March 17, 2004 You're supposed to untie the knot before you fold up the pilot chute. It's an aid to help prevent a pilot chute in tow. >If you are that worried about the collapsible PC Yes I'm that worried about it. Everyone should be.-- drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #30 March 17, 2004 Okay, that wasn't clear to me from your first post. I almost always pack for myself and check the pilot chute at least twice, usually three times when packing. If someone else packs for me, I usually try to check the window before running down to the plane, although I am certainly guilty of the occasional grab and dash. Getting a pin check from someone else is also a good idea. I'm also suprised at how many people don't understand how the PC works. Time some time and examine one with an instructor or rigger so you know how and why it functions like it does. Oh, and one more thing. Cocking the pilot chure before flaking the canopy when pro-packing is generally not a good idea. The bridle is apt to slip down the core. It is a better idea to cock the PC right before bagging the canopy, or at least check it again before bagging. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1shlips 2 #31 March 17, 2004 >The bridle is apt to slip down the core. Not when its knotted.-- drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #32 March 17, 2004 I think it was my post that caused the confusion... (ie; "as long as it's below the pin"...meaning I would jump it that way) Which I would, (as alternative to sewing it), to see what effect the inflated pc has on primarily, landing the canopy. I would do this because I am concerned about a pc in tow & am considering going to non-collapsible pc. If I find that the inflated pc has undesirable affect, I would then think f1shlip's idea of knotting bridal to be very good tool for assuring properly cocked pc., (especially for someone with a low number of kill-line pc packs, like myself) (and I would untie before closing) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #33 March 17, 2004 So, uhm, correct me if I'm wrong. You are delibratly making a malfunction in your opening system, to prevent you from possibly making a malfunstion in your opening system? Why does this sound wrong to me?The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #34 March 18, 2004 QuoteAfter you cock it, make a loop in the middle of a bridle and tie a knot with the loop. That way you know that you've cocked it, it cant slip uncocked and even if you pack it with the knot it'll still open like its supposed to. You are joking, right? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
f1shlips 2 #35 March 18, 2004 Nope not all. Its a technique my dzo uses and it works well. You sold me a sapphire altimiter when I was on student status at lake tahoe. Thanks! I love that thing, even in cleveland :(-- drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #36 March 18, 2004 I have openned my rig, put a knot about 1and 1/2 in from the bag & will be jumping it this weekend, (for the above reasons) I don't anticipate the open pc having that much affect on canopy / landing, & if this proves out...will be in the market for standard pc... Having looked at the RWS site, I can only find f-111 (standard)pc.. Does anyone mfr. a zp no-kill / pc?... And if so, would this type pc generate substantially more extraction force? edit; RWS f111 no kill is 32" - ZP Kill line is 27" so I'm assuming they have aproximately the same extraction / drag force. Have emailed Louie to confirm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimHurford 0 #37 March 18, 2004 The ‘Kill Line’, ‘Centre Line’ and ‘Collapsible’ pilot chute are designed to collapse after the main canopy is deployed, to reduce the parasitic drag from the inflated pilot chute while under canopy. Noting manufacturers different techniques, this pilot chute has piece of cord that is routed through the centre of main bridle, and attaches to the apex of the pilot chute at one end and the d-bag at the other end. The bridle is attached to skirt of the pilot chute at one end, and the d-bag at the other. When the line is pulled through to the PC (ie. cocked) the pilot chute apex is at the extent that gives the highest coefficient of drag – ie. the pilot chute inflates ‘normally’. When the kill line is pulled back through (ie. un-cocked), the apex is pulled down to the skirt, and the pilot chute collapses. During deployment, whilst the canopy is in the bag the bridle takes all the load, transferred via the suspension lines, risers, and the harness. Once the canopy is out of the bag, the drag force causes the PC to 'invert' by pulling the PC skirt and bridle 'up the kill line’ The consequences of an un-cocked pilot chute? An un-cocked pilot chute may have sufficient drag to extract the pin. It may then have sufficient drag to achieve line stretch and deploy the main. This would be a *lucky* event - but it does happen more often than not - see Billy Weber's video! As the un cocked PC does not apply as much force as an inflated PC, anything that impedes line stretch may result in a bag lock; for example, a doubled locking stow that doesn't present a problem with normal deployment may not release with an un-cocked PC. Conversely, the PC may simply extract the pin and not generate enough drag for line stretch - or perhaps partial stretch - and likely not enough drag to disconnect the 3-ring if cutaway. Potential here for main/reserve entanglement is enormous. I've seen a tandem mal, where the pilotchute had sufficient drag to open the container and partially lift the bag but due to the weight of the main bag, could not achieve line stretch. The TM cutaway and manually cleared the 3-rings and then fell away from the bag before continuing EPs (very heads-up TM!). If you have a tight main closing loop, the un-cocked PC may not even open the container - resulting in a,’PC in tow’ high-speed mal, with significant risk of main/reserve entanglement from the main bridle/pilot chute. Thus, if the kill line shrinks due to wear (ie. friction), the PC can nolonger be fully cocked resulting in less than optimal drag - which may cause anything from a hesitation to a PC in tow. If you knot the bridle, you prevent the kill line from retracting (presuming you knot it after you cock it of course ) leaving you with a 'fully inflated' PC. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #38 March 18, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After you cock it, make a loop in the middle of a bridle and tie a knot with the loop. That way you know that you've cocked it, it cant slip uncocked and even if you pack it with the knot it'll still open like its supposed to. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are joking, right Actually, this works really well. And you pretty much have to be an idiot to miss it when you're packing your pilot chute. Plus, in the lame-ass event you did miss it, the p/c would still function as a normal, non-kill line p/c....uless you made the loop so big that it effectively shorted your bridle by more than, say, 2 feet. Then you might have problems getting the p/c far enough out of your burble to get good inflation. Less of an issue with a pull-out, as you need less drag (no pin to pop), but it still could potentially be a problem. But like I said, you'd have to REALLY shorten that bridle up a lot, then miss it during packing, to run into an issue here. If you have problems with kill-line slippage, this is a good method to reduce it. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #39 March 18, 2004 How about just re-cocking it when you put the bag in the tray? If you did miss it, don't you think the lines would be interested in meeting that big ole knot in the tray? Just curious and playing devils advocate, because I have never seen this. Maybe because I haven't seen a lot of slippage issues on our floor.... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimHurford 0 #40 March 18, 2004 A related question? Bungy pilot chutes. The bungy connects the apex to the skirt and collapses the PC. Right? The pressure from deployment of the PC stretches the bungy, inflates the PC, extracts the bag; when the canopy is inflated and the pressure is reduced, the PC returns to the collapsed state? So what happens when the bungy wears out? Does it stretch so that the PC is always 'inflated'? Or does it loose elasticity so that the PC can't inflate? Or is it a combination so that the PC only partially inflates? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #41 March 18, 2004 I just don't like tying knots in my equipment where there aren't supposed to be knots. If someone needs that as an aid to packing properly, go for it. Personally I just cock the PC after I lay the cocoon down and I check that the PC catches air and has the right geometry after I close the container but before I pack the PC into the BOC. (The geometry check is easy, now that someone showed me: pull the top (hacky) and bottom (bridle attachment point) of the PC apart, and see if the internal PC tapes are taught.) Then I check the window after it's all packed up. With three different checks at three different places, I'm not worried about forgetting to cock the PC. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #42 March 20, 2004 Quote; "How about just re-cocking it when you put the bag in the tray?" ----------------------- I confirmed today (phone-senior rigger) that if the pc becomes un-packed while stuffing canopy in bag, you can indeed re-cock it (after it is in bag). My concern here is canopy skin getting 'rapped' by bridal or kill line, resulting in burn. Tip from rigger; This can be avoided by s-folding portion of bridal/k-line inside of bag & rapping with rubber band. (after cocking) Thanks, D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #43 March 20, 2004 Quote; "The geometry check is easy, now that someone showed me: pull the top (hacky) and bottom (bridle attachment point) of the PC apart, and see if the internal PC tapes are taught.)" ---------------------- Glad to hear this! After inspecting both my kill-line pc's last night... I arrived at this technique also. (I have used container, and sprung for new k-line pc after reading about kill line shrinkage) Thanks, D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #44 March 20, 2004 Quote; "RWS f111 no kill is 32" - ZP Kill line is 27" so I'm assuming they have aproximately the same extraction / drag force." -------------------------------- Have confirmed this... However f111 pc's porosity will start to increase at about 50 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #45 March 20, 2004 Quote(I have used container, and sprung for new k-line pc after reading about kill line shrinkage) Assuming the rest of the PC is serviceable, it would have been much less expensive to just have a rigger replace the kill-line.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #46 March 20, 2004 QuoteBungy pilot chutes. The bungy connects the apex to the skirt and collapses the PC. Right? Wrong. The bungy connects the apex to the top of the bridle where it attaches to the base of the PC. Correct, when assembled and maintained properly it collapses the PC. QuoteThe pressure from deployment of the PC stretches the bungy, inflates the PC, extracts the bag; when the canopy is inflated and the pressure is reduced, the PC returns to the collapsed state? Correct. QuoteSo what happens when the bungy wears out? It will no longer collapse the PC. QuoteDoes it stretch so that the PC is always 'inflated'? Yes. QuoteOr does it loose elasticity so that the PC can't inflate? Yes, it loses it's elasticity in that it remains in the "stretched" configuration and will not contract back to the length that will collapse the PC. So, while it does lose elasticity, that causes it to leave the PC inflated rather than preventing it from inflating. QuoteOr is it a combination so that the PC only partially inflates? No, only shrinking or in some way shortening the bungee would cause this, or more likely, an incorrectly assembled bungy.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #47 March 21, 2004 QuoteNo, only shrinking or in some way shortening the bungee would cause this, or more likely, an incorrectly assembled bungy. We Had some fun with this... :) Someone over here "helped" another jumper by shortening his bungee (the jumper was complaining about it opening during hookies). He did an hop and pop... off course followed by a freebag search... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #48 March 21, 2004 Quote; "We Had some fun with this... :) Someone over here "helped" another jumper by shortening his bungee (the jumper was complaining about it opening during hookies). He did an hop and pop... off course followed by a freebag search..." ---------------------------------------------------- IF THIS IS YOUR IDEA OF FUN... PLEASE WARN ME IF YOU DECIDE TO VISIT KC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #49 March 21, 2004 Off course the guy who did it is a stupid F*K, but it's one of those stories skydivers tell each other and make most skydivers laugh... Added are the stories of the broken bones, Demo jumps in which you f*k up, have intense pain, but walk away smiling and waving to the crowd... "Oh that? ah.. no biggie" (to start crying when you're in the bus... ) If you jump long enough you'll gather your stories and f*k ups you witnessed and tell them and people will laugh... It's part of "the culture" The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #50 March 21, 2004 QuoteIf you jump long enough you'll gather your stories and f*k ups you witnessed and tell them and people will laugh... It's part of "the culture" ...pretty sick f'in culture, man. Sad but true... I'm still terribly new and am not looking for any more 'cool' stories, just in case the fates are peeking in on this thread...~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
