ABP dead?

[RhondaLea 3]

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We are leaderless.

While I understand where you're coming from, I think part of the problem is sort of inverted. We have too many "leader" types.

Hence the oft-quoted "herding cats" analogy.

The "herding cats" analogy was applied to skydivers before base jumpers existed.

And yet, skydivers, for ill or nil, have USPA.

There is no doubt that USPA is flawed, but its accomplishments are many more than those for which the organization is given credit. Furthermore, said accomplishments are the result of the hard work of cats who would not be herded but who did see a need to work for the common good, "common good" being defined as "keeping skydivers jumping."

So...

First off, everyone needs to decide what the goal is. Then everyone needs to work toward the goal, without regard for personalities and minutia.

It is not difficult to set up a non-profit foundation. It is possible to put together a group of people with a common goal and have that goal come to fruition, if everyone involved concentrates on the goal. If everyone agrees that legal access is the issue, then stop fucking around and do something positive. By this, I do not mean reverting to the 60s. The hippies did not stop the war in Vietnam, after all. It is far more likely that they helped extend it by a year or two, just because the radicals pissed off so many who otherwise would have been on their side. You cannot beat the system, so you're going to have to learn to use it if you intend to win what is a bureaucrats' game.


That being said, this is my singular comment on the statement made by the Alliance:

Such a bunch of self-serving, posturing bullshit I expect to find tacked into the correspondence section of a pre-litigation file, and even occasionally in a badly-written brief. In that context, it doesn't bother me in the least, because it's built into the legal system, but reading it here on this board in connection with base makes me gag.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Zennie 0]

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One member even went so far as to issue an ultimatum demanding that he would resign if another member did not.

Let me guess.... Marta was threatening to quit unless Jimmy was given the boot.

j/k J&M... nothin but love.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[vandev 0]

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Thank you for your patience and this will be our final public comment on this matter: We are now going back to get back to the business at hand:
fighting on behalf of our members and backcountry parachutists at large for fair access and responsible use, worldwide.

I hope when the crack wears off you will relize that Europe could and never will give a shit what you American people think... For whatever its worth...and for the poor souls who send you money...you need to start worrying about your own backyard before you worry about someone else's that does not have your problems of access...

Stating that you cannot get base jumpers to get together for a greater good shows me you do not have the insite to do just that...

It's no wonder that my only goals to jump are to jump in europe ..please stay out of there before you fuck my chances up of one day stepping off exit #6....

Sorry, but you are screwing with my future plans...

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[JaapSuter 0]

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It's no wonder that my only goals to jump are to jump in europe ..please stay out of there before you fuck my chances up of one day stepping off exit #6.... Sorry, but you are screwing with my future plans...

How is that?

Also; Europe is facing the same battles as the US is. It's more legal now, but that's because of the hard work that people have put into it, not because of this imaginary different mindset that in reality doesn't exist.

[base587 0]

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That being said, this is my singular comment on the statement made by the Alliance:

Such a bunch of self-serving, posturing bullshit I expect to find tacked into the correspondence section of a pre-litigation file, and even occasionally in a badly-written brief. In that context, it doesn't bother me in the least, because it's built into the legal system, but reading it here on this board in connection with base makes me gag.

rl

I can't believe anyone is still gullible enough to get involved in ANY venture involving RH......??????

Sorry....but it floors me.....

[vandev 0]

Thats true...but the difference is that they are still jumping exit #6 the day after a fatality and when is the last time they jumped El Cap..... They state they are fighting for worldwide access when they cant even fix there own access problems.It's the art of "don't try to fix something thats not broken"...
If you can gain access to El Cap again then you have shown you have abilities to do good elsewhere. They also state in a letter that Utah is first on there list. Whats the plan there. they have access in sites there.. Maybe i am wrong ...but from what i have read...something aint right in the henhouse...

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[base587 0]

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Thank you for your patience and this will be our final public comment on this matter: We are now going back to get back to the business at hand:
fighting on behalf of our members and backcountry parachutists at large for fair access and responsible use, worldwide.

I hope when the crack wears off you will relize that Europe could and never will give a shit what you American people think... For whatever its worth...and for the poor souls who send you money...you need to start worrying about your own backyard before you worry about someone else's that does not...yada yada...

....and, uh, Mr Vandev, what is the name and location of your home DZ?

[leroydb 0]

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They state they are fighting for worldwide access when they cant even fix there own access problems.

In anyevent, the APB is trying to help.

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[vandev 0]

and whats yours if it really matters that much....

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[vandev 0]

I didn't say they werent trying to help...i thought it a setback that 1, they are not going to represent the base jumping community as a whole. 2, they cant seem to get the community together as a hole which is what a Alliance is suppose to be. Different people with the same goals in mind working togather for the "Greater Good"...

Something just does not seem right ...just my opinion....Thats why we have this forum to share opinions and information...Right??

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[RhondaLea 3]

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I can't believe anyone is still gullible enough to get involved in ANY venture involving RH......??????

Sorry....but it floors me.....

That is because you do not make the common mistake of equating charm, wit and intelligence with having a conscience.

It's an easy trap in which to fall. Robin has many of the attributes required of a leader, but he lacks the character and substance that are required to go the distance. Unfortunately, up until now, few have learned the lessons of those who came before them, because it is human nature to blame not the perp, but the victim.

Tragic, that.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[leroydb 0]

I agree with you in a way, it is disconcerting that they don't acknowledge BASE jumpers directly. But I serisouly think it is on purpose that they are doing that. I think that they think they need to distance themselves to make any progress. And god forbid they do make anyprogress, then we might reep some of the benifits. I for one want tp see where this goes.

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I didnt say they werent trying to help...i thought it a setback that 1, they are not going to represent the base jumping community as ahole. 2, they cant seem to get the community together as a hole which is what a Alliance is suppose to be. Different people with the same goals in mind working togather for the "Greater Good"...

Something just does not seem right ...just my opinion....Thats why we have this forum to share opinions and information...Right??

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[BenHall 0]

First off, I don't BASE yet, but I am a member of ABP so I do believe I have a small say.

Vandev, unwad your panties. ABP made it clear that the primary focus is US national parks and that worldwide efforts come only after all of the local issues have been resolved. In addition, so far the worldwide definition only includes Canada and Australia so your precious Europe is safe.

I don't think it matters whether or not you agree with administrative changes or with leadership, bottom line is there is finally a formal organization that is working to expand legal BASE jumping. Every jumper should be supporting the effort, and as I've heard from what happened this month in Utah things have gotten off to a decent start. I wish I could have been at the meeting but I was detained at a nearby Air Force Base.

Bottom line is way too many people are whining instead of trying to help. That's just what I've seen so far from my point of view.

[leroydb 0]

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Bottom line is way too many people are whining instead of trying to help. That's just what I've seen so far from my point of view.

ding ding we have a winner!!!!

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[JaapSuter 0]

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1, they are not going to represent the base jumping community as a whole.

Nobody can. Have you seen what kind of personalities are attracted to BASE? At any rate, we should commend the ABP on coming as far as they have.

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2, they cant seem to get the community together as a hole which is what a Alliance is suppose to be.

Only if it was called the Alliance of BASE Jumpers, which it isn't. Given that there was no prior movement in the backcountry niche, I feel they had a right to call themselves the alliance of backcountry parachutists. The second they did that though, the right turned into a plight. Now that they have alienated part of the backcountry group, they better make sure they accomplish their goals, or prepare for a waterfall of critisism.

[vandev 0]

You could be right....but not about my panties....I go commando....

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[vandev 0]

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Have you seen what kind of personalities are attracted to BASE?

Yes to some extent....and i dont want to compare but it reminds me of the dropzone or the surf line up at rincon...Alot of different personalities all with the same love of what they are doing....

And hey....look at the Woman of base calander....thats a start for world peace...

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[JaapSuter 0]

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It's an easy trap in which to fall. Robin has many of the attributes required of a leader, but he lacks the character and substance that are required to go the distance. Unfortunately, up until now, few have learned the lessons of those who came before them, because it is human nature to blame not the perp, but the victim.

How are we supposed to learn those lessons if the person doesn't come with a manual? When the ABP was formed, I didn't see anybody come up with a post that explained why Robin wouldn't be the right person to head up this venture.

Commenting on somebody else's personality traits without substantiating those is poor form. Since I generally trust your opinion, I do consider it. Nonetheless I would like to see some backup. Feel free to PM me.

Meanwhile, I would recommend slightly rewording your post in less assertive terms. Perhaps something along the following lines: "My personal experience with said person in the past have led me to believe that he lacks certain traits required to handle the task at hand and live up to expectations. Feel free to PM me for more details, and don't hesitate to contact said person for the other side of the story."

Goddamn, I should go in politics.

[TomAiello 25]

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Bottom line is way too many people are whining instead of trying to help. That's just what I've seen so far from my point of view.

ding ding we have a winner!!!!

In fairness, I feel like I did what I could to help, and was told that my contributions were not desired. I don't think the ABP actually wants people to try to help--hence the new, streamlined organization.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[vandev 0]

I'll vote for ya.....

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[TomAiello 25]

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When the ABP was formed, I didn't see anybody come up with a post that explained why Robin wouldn't be the right person to head up this venture.

That's my fault. I removed a discussion along those lines. I didn't want the forum to get bogged down into a rehashing of Robin's historical sins. If you search the BLiNC archives, you can find that issue done over and over.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

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That's my fault. I removed a discussion along those lines. I didn't want the forum to get bogged down into a rehashing of Robin's historical sins. If you search the BLiNC archives, you can find that issue done over and over.

Not your fault. You made the right decision. If people like yourself, several manufacturers and other experienced and well-known BASE jumpers decide to be in the board of directors, that shows a vote of confidence that is big enough that I can see past whatever Robin's past is and join the ABP.

Whether or not that may have been a mistake remains to be seen.

In the meanwhile, the ABP is still fighting for a good cause and not necessarily harming it. While we would probably be more effective in unison, we just have to accept our differences and keep focused on the finish line, instead of our internal turmoil.

Less thinking, more jumping. To think that I of all people would say that some day...

[RhondaLea 3]

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How are we supposed to learn those lessons if the person doesn't come with a manual? When the ABP was formed, I didn't see anybody come up with a post that explained why Robin wouldn't be the right person to head up this venture.

There are those who fear that Robin's relationship with Skydiving Magazine makes him a danger to their reputation. This is not true--neither Mike nor Sue would allow themselves to be used in anyone's personal vendetta--but it zips many lips.

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Commenting on somebody else's personality traits without substantiating those is poor form. Since I generally trust your opinion, I do consider it. Nonetheless I would like to see some backup. Feel free to PM me.

Meanwhile, I would recommend slightly rewording your post in less assertive terms. Perhaps something along the following lines: "My personal experience with said person in the past have led me to believe that he lacks certain traits required to handle the task at hand and live up to expectations. Feel free to PM me for more details, and don't hesitate to contact said person for the other side of the story."

Goddamn, I should go in politics.

That's the problem, Jaap. Everyone wants to believe that there are two sides to a story, but there is a singular instance in which there is not.

My personal experience of Robin is, in large measure, that of a charming, witty, warm, intelligent and discerning conversationalist and writer (as long as he sticks to non-fiction). He also has a nice laugh. It bugs me to say that, but fair is fair. And based on that alone--even considering the upshot of the whole thing and even though I haven't been on speaking terms with him for 7 or 8 years--I'd have sent in my hundred bucks a long time ago.

Robin's history in base and in skydiving, however, is another matter altogether, and although those stories are told in different places by different people, they are all the same story--one of betrayal, small and large. In every way possible, going all the way back to his roots in the sport, Robin has betrayed the people who have called him friend.

Hugs and knives-in-the-back,
rl

P.S. PM follows as soon as I get this cramp out of my hand.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[tfelber 0]

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...skydivers, for ill or nil, have USPA

And some on the BOD don't get along. As a matter of fact there are law suits and such between BOD members. Some BOD members don't run USPA member dropzones.

YET, the organization still exists and promotes skydiving quite well.

If the ABP is really committed to increased access as they indicate then I'm still behind there goal. If this turns out to be a money or control issue then their stated goal is not the true goal. If it is a "separation of church and state" type issue, where it is spoken that they are separate but one influences the other, then I also do not agree with the direction they are going.

I think the only way we will know for sure is through their future actions. It appears to me some of the most influential people in BASE have just been distanced from this organization...

[tfelber 0]

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Utah is first on there list. Whats the plan there...

Utah State Parks are not necessarily legal, BLM on the other hand is. There was recently a meeting involving BASE in Utah's State Parks. What happened with that meeting? Is this the real root of the problem?