Accident before BD 2004

[JohnnyUtah 0]

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Regardless of what we think, when one of your students is injured, you are likely to feel some personal doubt or guilt. To expect an instructor or mentor to never question themselves, to never ask "couldn't I have done better to prepare the student?" is probably not realistic. Humans cannot just shut off their emotional responses. When you guide someone, no matter how hard you try to make things as safe as possible for them, you still feel some responsibility when they are injured.

I heard about a pre-BD accident that happened just this last fall at the pineycone bridge (approx 230 feet). I didnt hear much discussion in the way of what went wrong and how to prevent a repeat. My guess is, that was one of those accidents where there is a ton of lessons to be learned.

Tom A., you were telling me something about it and I am curious how you felt about the whole thing. From what I vaguely remember, you were doing a PCA for someone at the pineycone bridge. I remember he was a beginner to BASE (what jump number was it……..was it his first or second BASE jump?). He had a bad off-heading and ended up hitting the pillar and breaking both legs with compound fractures. So did he stall into the pillar or hit it hard with horizontal movement (or both)?

What do you consider that arrangement……were you mentoring him? Was he looking to you for any guidance? No doubt you must of felt pretty bad. Considering what you wrote in your post, how responsible did you feel with that accident?

Like I said, my guess is, that was one of those accidents where there is a ton of lessons to be learned.

My opinion about that site has always been, newbies shouldnt be jumping it and I have told people that for years. Ive talked people out of jumping it while they were getting their rig out of the car. It looks easy enough and when things go as planned, it is. BUT - When things go wrong there, it can get real gnarly real quick. Just a little heads up for all you newer enthusiast.

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[TomAiello 25]

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What do you consider that arrangement……were you mentoring him?

I met him about 20 minutes before the jump, when our two groups bumped into each other in the landing area while walking up. I was unaware of his level of experience (I believe he had 8 prior BASE jumps, 2 off that span) until we reached the exit. I agreed to do the PCA because their group (3 jumpers) had limited experience, and were going to jump regardless. In that situation, I think that helping reduce the risks is better than refusing to help.

Was I mentoring him? No, I don't think so. Mentoring, for most of us, involves more than just holding a pilot chute.

But yes, I did feel pretty bad for him. Witness, for example, the fact that I stayed with him for two hours, guided the rescue crew in, and was willing to get arrested rather than leave an injured jumper.

I'm sure that everyone else on the load felt bad, too. Perhaps Peter or Jamie can tell you how they felt, as well.

If you'd like to start a discussion of that accident, there's a "post new" button in the upper right corner of the forum page.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JohnnyUtah 0]

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If you'd like to start a discussion of that accident, there's a "post new" button in the upper right corner of the forum page.

Cool, Im glad its there, but I was more interested in replying to your post where you talk about feeling responsible and teaching and mentoring and stuff. I noticed in the past you have made several post like that.

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I think that helping reduce the risks is better than refusing to help.

Now be honest, did you try talking him out of it?
Were you the most experienced jumper on the load? If so, do you think that matters at all?
I was also wondering where you exited from. Were you close to the pillar or on the pillar?

How is the jumper? Did he recover OK?

Since you went downtown on this incident, can you please tell us how badly it burnt the bridge during that time of year?

In reply to your post about feeling responsible and back to my original question, how responsible did you feel with that accident?

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[KidWicked 0]

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If you'd like to start a discussion of that accident, there's a "post new" button in the upper right corner of the forum page.

Cool, Im glad its there, but I was more interested in replying to your post where you talk about feeling responsible and teaching and mentoring and stuff. I noticed in the past you have made several post like that.

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I think that helping reduce the risks is better than refusing to help.

Now be honest, did you try talking him out of it?
Were you the most experienced jumper on the load? If so, do you think that matters at all?
I was also wondering where you exited from. Were you close to the pillar or on the pillar?

How is the jumper? Did he recover OK?

Since you went downtown on this incident, can you please tell us how badly it burnt the bridge during that time of year?

In reply to your post about feeling responsible and back to my original question, how responsible did you feel with that accident?

Come on dude, this is the practical definition of "passive aggressive". (Something I know a lot about... but hey, at least I can point it out when I see it.)

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[TomAiello 25]

It sounds like you're looking for specifics on this particular incident, so I've split it off into it's own thread.

There are multiple posters on this forum who were present at the time. Perhaps they will contribute their views, as well.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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...I was more interested in replying to your post where you talk about feeling responsible and teaching and mentoring and stuff. I noticed in the past you have made several post like that.

Are you saying that you don't feel responsible, in any way, for people who you teach to BASE jump? I guess I just don't operate that way.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

On to the specifics of the accident:

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Now be honest, did you try talking him out of it?

Nope. I said pretty much the same thing I say to everyone, which is "you know, you don't have to do this jump."

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Were you the most experienced jumper on the load?

Yep. That's why I decided to stay. In my opinion, the most experienced jumper on the load is the default "stay and get busted" guy. Regardless, if there had been a more experienced jumper on the load who had chosen to bail, I would have stayed anyway. I just don't think that leaving injured people by themselves is good human conduct.

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If so, do you think that matters at all?

Yes. See my above explanation that I believe the most experienced jumper on a load ought to be willing to stay with the injured and take the bust. That's what I did.

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I was also wondering where you exited from. Were you close to the pillar or on the pillar?

In the exact center of the span, midway between two pillars.

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How is the jumper? Did he recover OK?

He had one leg amputated below the knee during the following week, by surgeons at a major medical center. But I'm sure you knew that, since it was widely disseminated on several midwest skydiving listservs.

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Since you went downtown on this incident, can you please tell us how badly it burnt the bridge during that time of year?

As far as I can tell, not much, actually. That surprises me. There was another incident earlier in the day at the same site, in which jumpers were chased off by police, and also a self-rescue of an injured jumper. I spoke to the Sheriff after the accident, when I was in custody, and truthfully found his attitude to be very understanding and accepting. I believe his exact words were "heck, if I wanted to do that, I'd be out there too."

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...how responsible did you feel with that accident?

I'm not sure what kind of response you are looking for. A number from 1 to 100?

I felt responsible enough to stay and face arrest, to sort out gear, to call the hospital to check on him, to call his friends at home in an effort to get things organized post-accident, and to call and check in on him a couple times in the following weeks.

In all honesty, Johnny, it seems like you're trying to use this accident to launch yet another attack against me. But I feel that I acted well, and did the right thing here. I will gladly stand by my post-accident responses in this situation (and every other that I have been involved in).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JohnnyUtah 0]

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...I was more interested in replying to your post where you talk about feeling responsible and teaching and mentoring and stuff. I noticed in the past you have made several post like that.

Are you saying that you don't feel responsible, in any way, for people who you teach to BASE jump? I guess I just don't operate that way.

No, thats not what Im saying at all. Not even close.

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[QuickDraw 0]

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Since you went downtown on this incident, can you please tell us how badly it burnt the bridge during that time of year?

Probably didn't have as much exposure as on here (having been named twice so far).

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[RhondaLea 3]

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Come on dude, this is the practical definition of "passive aggressive". (Something I know a lot about... but hey, at least I can point it out when I see it.)

Passive-aggressive and hostile.

Just for the record, well-experienced jumpers have been hurt there too. Enough so, that at BD'96 or '97 the Chief Ranger made pointed remarks about it. His speech actually sounded like an offer to turn a blind eye to what was going on his backyard if everyone would just please forgo the 200 and 700 footers.

rl

[Treejumps 0]

Interestingly enough, I was not aware that this jumper had a double amputation. I had heard of the accident, but only limted details. As a local to this site (as local as about anyone nearby) I can tell you that it isn't even close to burned and has seen the usual level of activity this season.

Johnny, I'm not sure what you think you are saying, or if you are even attempting a very thinly veiled attack or what, but Tom's atendance to this accident, assuming what he posted is true (I have no reason to believe its not) is well above the call of duty. Would you have stayed with a guy you knew 20 minutes if his friends were there? Would you have stayed if he had payed you a thousand bucks for a course, if his friends were there and you could have skated?

If you are going to asseil someone's character, just do it. It appears you have made a poor decision to bring up this incident as it was handled as well as anyone could have, and with as much character as could have been displayed .

If you are going to get paid to teach people base, you are responsible in some way for them. Personally, I don't think that people should pay for BASE instruction and I don't think that people should want to get paid for BASE instruction. Whether or not to teach someone was always the little safety lock to keep things cool in the sport, and to make sure someone really wanted it. Now we have people with no skills or brainwaves throwing non-jumpers off of "safe" bridges.

If you chose to hold someone's PC whom you just met, you choose what kind of person you are by how you respond in crisis. For anyone who has ever been injured, you're glad to have someone around who thinks only of you and your injury, not of the consequences of helping you.

[vid666 0]

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It sounds like you're looking for specifics on this particular incident, so I've split it off into it's own thread.

There are multiple posters on this forum who were present at the time. Perhaps they will contribute their views, as well.

I was the only one who saw the accident from the ground, as I have just landed and was running for the camera. What exact specifics do people want to know ?

Personally I felt like shit and still do about the whole thing. I don't want to get into details, but what happened was absolutely not Toms or anybody elses fault. Using a Raven 3 with an exit weight of over 200 and being completely uncurrent as well as ( SPECULATION ) non-customized DBS are main factors in my mind.

I really don't feel like saying more than I have to, so if people have questions - please go ahead.

One more thing, if anything, Tom was very supportive of our small group who asked him to help us make that jump, cuz as he said, we were pretty determined to go at it. Though, in all honesty, the agreement between us has been that if there are no experienced jumpers there to help us, we would walk away. Tom also was the one whos volunteered to be left behind while myself and another jumper had to scramble to find the payphone as none of our 3-4 cellphones worked there...

...

[BASE813 0]

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Just a little heads up for all you newer enthusiast

something in your posts and tone says to me this is not your main focus in posting this............

[vandev 0]

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If you'd like to start a discussion of that accident, there's a "post new" button in the upper right corner of the forum page.

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Cool, Im glad its there, but I was more interested in replying to your post where you talk about feeling responsible and teaching and mentoring and stuff. I noticed in the past you have made several post like that.


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I think that helping reduce the risks is better than refusing to help.

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Now be honest, did you try talking him out of it?
Were you the most experienced jumper on the load? If so, do you think that matters at all?
I was also wondering where you exited from. Were you close to the pillar or on the pillar?

How is the jumper? Did he recover OK?

Since you went downtown on this incident, can you please tell us how badly it burnt the bridge during that time of year?

In reply to your post about feeling responsible and back to my original question, how responsible did you feel with that accident? ***

I will have to admit i thought i would never find this crap in a base forum. Especially from someone as experienced as you.... i am new to base as i am going threw my research phase. This is not a attack on you Johnny, only a observation from someone who has happened to hang around people of your experience level. It does very much sound like a attack on Tom A. I have never met Tom , but feel as if i have know him for a while so i will add my 2 cents. Tom has been more than helpful answering and helping anyone who asks for any help in this sport. I know i have asked the stupidest questions more than once . He always answers with a great attitude. I saw your resume and find it hard to believe you brought up this incident. For one, that you even had the time with a resume like yours... I would hate to be on a FJC and have you give me a gear check if you where standing next to TOM as it seems you have some ill feelings about him... I thought pretty much people with your experience should be setting a little higher standards for us newer people to learn from. If i saw this crap at jump point between experienced jumpers , i would most definatly walk down. As i said, i am new. I hope this is not like the NFL, where allot of talented people act like assholes.. I would think in this sport, there would be a common bond not found in allot of sports. I surely hope so...

As for feeling responsable.... How about #63 Lori Barr, July 23, 2002 ....Do you think everyone who had anything to do with her , from her first jump till her last jump felt responsable...."Yes", I bet they all felt awfull.. It's human nature.... I have been in the same shoes and know that feeling. It's human...

And for Tom staying behind...."He just has big balls to do the right thing... You dont find that in most people these day's. As a ex Airborne Ranger we have a saying, "You never leave anyone behind"... never!

Let me ask you Johnny, "Would you leave someone behind who smacked in if you thought it would burn a site??

I would hope not....

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"