ACE DAGGER Or ????

[Freefly69 0]

What's up all. I'm looking for some imput.
I have 21 BASE jumps S and A. I plan on mostly jumping the local antennas (600' and 1520') but will be taking a few trips out to moab and hopefully someday out to Eruope for the big walls.

I have only jumped MOJO and DAGGER. I think the mojo opened cleaner than the dagger, but I liked the flight characteristics of the dagger. I want to get a new canopy but I can't decide on which one. I will be putting this into a Vertigo Warlock.

Who has jumped the Ace, Dagger and Troll and what do you like / dislike about them? Many people have advised on a vented canopy, but I'm not sure that I need one or that it is necessary. I understand that the extra cost of the vents is cheaper than the medical bills and pain. What do you think???

Thanks!

Expect Nothing. Be Ready For Anything!

[peterk 0]

Blackjack with zero-P composite...

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

[flite 0]

Think Troll MDV

[Freefly69 0]

Well, so far two replies and two vented canopies.

Why do you feel vented canopies have such an advantage? I have heard better control early in pressurization, and reinflation after object strike.
Any experiences?

Expect Nothing. Be Ready For Anything!

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

Any experiences?

And to those that suggest a certain canopy, can you include what other canopies you have flown and corresponding jump numbers on them?

I'd recommend a Rockdragon, but that's only because I own one, and I don't believe the six jumps I made on an unvented Mojo give me enough material to make a good comparison or recommendation.

Whatever brand you go with, just make sure it's pink . That's the most important thing.

[leroydb 0]

thats what flavor I like... do you have the brake line mod?

blackjack: 55+
Fox: 1st base jump
Dagger: 15-20?... have to look in my log...

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[TomAiello 25]

If you are only jumping largish Antennas, it may not be worth your while to invest in the bottom skin inlets.

Bottom vents aid in cell pressurization, generally yielding cleaner openings and faster time to riser responsiveness. They can also aid in overall inflation speed (which only really matters at very low altitudes). They also cost several hundred dollars extra, so if you're not going to be doing things where they really come into their own (low stuff, solid stuff, and especially underhung stuff), they may not be worth the money for you specifically.

If I was buying an unvented canopy for that kind of thing, I'd go with an Ace. In my opinion, it's got the best unvented inflations on the market (mostly because it was designed first as an unvented canopy).

If you are opening the field up to vented canopies, I'd go with either the Blackjack with ZP foreskin (as Peter recommended), because that's my personal favorite canopy on a wide cross range of criteria (best inflations, good penetration into wind--which will matter on your antennas, strong flare). If you like the way that the Dagger flew for you, you also ought to consider the Apex (previously Vertigo) Rock Dragon. While it doesn't appear to have quite the penetration of the Dagger, it has significantly superior inflation, and is probably (given that you were pleased with the Dagger) something you'll want to check out. Plus, it'll likely mate (sizewise) well with your Warlock.

I've jumped all three of the canopies you asked specifically about (Ace, Dagger and Troll).

I didn't like the Dagger's inflation (I felt it wasn't clean enough), and truthfully, I wasn't too comfortable with the swoopiness of the canopy (although I'm sure that's a personal preference issue). Note that I have made a very limited number of jumps on the Dagger (less than 30, and none of those canopies were my own).

If you are going with the Troll, I'd definitely get the MDV (bottom inlets) option. Without it, I was most unhappy with the canopy's inflation (both slider up and slider down). The MDV pretty much addressed these issues, though. I like the Troll's flght characteristics (good penetration, good available forward speed in full flight, good sink in deep brakes, good flare). I have several hundred jumps on the Troll (including a good number of both MDV and standard jumps, and a good spread of slider up/down).

For flight characteristics, I like the Ace the best. I also think that, unvented, it has far the best inflation of these three (unvented) canopies. It does have more available forward speed than the others, which some folks don't like (personally, I just pull the toggles down a bit more, which seems to address the problem). I've been very pleased with the openings, the flare and especially the responsiveness to riser input. I like the Blackjack even better. I've made roughly 50 jumps on Aces, but several hundred on Blackjacks (which pretty much fly the same).

Bottom line? I'd recommend an Ace if you go unvented. If you want vents, try to get both a Blackjack and a Rock Dragon to demo, and see how you like each.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[motherhucker 0]

Quote

If you are only jumping largish Antennas, it may not be worth your while to invest in the bottom skin inlets.

Bottom vents aid in cell pressurization, generally yielding cleaner openings and faster time to riser responsiveness. They can also aid in overall inflation speed (which only really matters at very low altitudes). They also cost several hundred dollars extra, so if you're not going to be doing things where they really come into their own (low stuff, solid stuff, and especially underhung stuff), they may not be worth the money for you specifically.

Tom;
While I generally agree with what you've said above, You aren't taking deep brake approaches into consideration. A vented canopy such as a RockDragon or a Troll MDV has been DESIGNED to provide stability in deep brake approaches, and leave you with a reasonable amount of flare to land you safely in a tight spot. I think it's wrong to base your canopy choice on the factors Tom mentioned by themselves, without considering the spots you want to land in. If your local "largish A" is surrounded by 60' pine trees, as are a couple around these parts, you will need a steep, stable approach to keep from dashing yourself onto sharp rocks or the trees/objects themselves.

These days there are many good canopies on the market, each excelling in one or two things, but lacking in others. There is no single canopy that is "the best" in all categories. Therefore, as a beginner, it makes the most sense to me to get a single canopy that performs medium well in ALL areas, and develop your canopy piloting skills as much as possible while you learn that canopy. During this time, it's a good idea to judge each BASE jump based on your current skill set and canopy's flight characteristics, limiting yourself to jumps that may well be "below" your ability level, but recognizing that you need to practice ALL of the skills in your BASE "quiver," including your landings.

That said, I think the Mojo is an excellent "all-around" canopy. It may not inflate as quickly as a vented canopy, but that shouldn't be a factor in any of the jumps you SHOULD be doing as a beginner. It may not have the "best" deep brake approaches, but it does well enough for the situations you SHOULD be allowing yourself to be in as a beginner. I personally don't care for the ACE, but many people do. I do love the flight characteristics of a Dagger, but not all do. Tom's advice of demoing many different canopies is good. Just be sure to do it in a low-pressure environment such as out of an airplane.

I think you get the point--your equipment doesn't keep you alive. YOU keep yourself alive. Develop the skills in your BASE "quiver." I guarantee if you continue to BASE jump, you WILL find yourself in a situation where you need them to save your life! (that's not a "you will PROBABLY need them," that is a "MOST DEFINATELY need them").

mh

[peterk 0]

I have a ZP Ace and now a ZP Blackjack. And a lot of recent jumps on the F111 Blackjack and Mojo.

In my opinion, the ZP topskin/foreskin is the bestest thing ever. EVER! The only negative I've heard from other jumpers was slightly more difficult packing, but I've found just the opposite. The transition is at the first packing tab, where the first lobe fold is, so it is almost a non-issue. But as far as having a canopy that flies more efficiently, glides more efficiently, sinks like magic, and flares solid, I sold my beloved Blackjack to replace it with the ZP Blackjack. Imagine landing your PD reserve, and then saying that you couldn't tell the difference flying your Spectre.

Nothing will save you if you suck, but playing with these ZP composite canopies, I would rather have ZP than vents, 99% of the time. Especially if you are trying to dodge 60' pine trees off local tall As...

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

[DaveO 0]

Does anyone have a review on the Troll DW MDV? You might want to check it out also.
But I have to say, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It's hard to go wrong with a good o'l V-tec FOX. Don't hear that word much anymore,...FOX, FOX, FOX,..

"When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion"

[Freefly69 0]

As far as names go, MOJO is the best.

Nothing will save you if you SUCK, but a little MOJO goes a long way!

I'm going Non vented. But I will strongly consider a ZP composite. I don't plan on many low walls. Just not my bag. But I'd like to avoid a 60' stick up my ass!

Expect Nothing. Be Ready For Anything!