Multi

[BASE813 0]

Myself and a friend were recently having a discussion the pros and cons of a multi. (the dirty danish mincer likes to have one!!)

I just wondered if many of you are using them and why you feel the need for them.

Most people I know dont use them and I dont beleive I have a use for them.............. just my inexperienced reasons!

So please let me know the Whys and whynots!

"The Multi" - Please discuss!

Thanks!

[hookitt 0]

I can't give an educated answer for or agains it. I did perform a search in the BASE zone for the word "multi" and it came up with pages of results.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[KevinMcGuire 0]

I love it. I have approx 700 jumps on it and I have never had anything negative happen as a result of using it. I think that it does just what BR says it does ie... extract the canopy in a symmetrical fashion and support the tail pocket and as a result helps o promote better heading performance. There are those out there who may not agree with me on this but, the numbers don't lie. in the past 700 jumps I have had very few openings that were greater than 45 off heading, (Less than 10) and none that were greater than 90.

[PerFlare 0]

Mac, Kevin

I have three canopies, one of them is equipped with a multi attachment point but I do not use it anymore. I did +200 jumps on that canopy with the multi bridle on. I took the multi bridle away and the last +200 jumps on it I think the canopy performs better.

No the numbers do not lie ... but sometimes the interpretation of what the numbers are saying are up to debate. I do not say that you are wrong Kevin, I just do not come to the same conclusion as you.

It is fantastic to have done 700 jumps and have no worse then a 90 degree off heading. I wish I could say the same :) I have maybe four 180’s per 100 jumps (if not more) and I have allot of 45’s.

Do you think the multi are the main reason for your on headings, or do you think your body position and the way you deploy tour PC are having a greater affect? It sounds like you have a perfect natural body position with excellent balance. I think that are the main reason that you on heading frequency are that good.

My body position is far from perfect and that are the main reasons for my off headings not the multi. One thing the multi does (at least for me) is that it makes the canopy more sensitive if I am not leveled during extraction and it makes the off heading more violent. I do jump pretty often in cross wind and I think the multi are making the canopy more sensitive.

One thing I do like about it is the fact that it supports you tail pocket. If I had better body position maybe I would love it to. If I was one of those who freefall ultra low I would use it to but I am not so for me the multi have more cons then pros.

But then again … this is just my opinion and that’s just an opinion …

PerFlare

[KevinMcGuire 0]

IMO I think that each and every opening is the result of many small factors. To be sure body position is a big piece of the puzzle and so is the method of deploying the P/C but those two factors alone are seldom enough to ensure good heading performance.
I have spent many hours watching video of openings in slow motion for both student education as well as personal growth. I have seen time and time again perfect body position and a perfect P/C deployment end in an off heading opening as a result of an symetrical inflation of the canopy.
What is causing these asymmetrical inflations? Typically they are a result of the following reasons.
1) Poor packing
2)Container choice-over sized canopy for the container being used or poor container shape ie..canopys may hang up for a milisecond in overly wrapped corners or the pack job that is deformed as a result of trying to close side flaps, or riser covers that cause the risers to work too hard to free them selfs. If one side hesitates even a little it will induce a turn. The severity of how bad the turn will be will be directly related to how steadfastly the riser cover holds the riser in place
3)Wind conditions
4) Overly aggrresive P/C deployment
5) Center cell strip.
To me the logic behind the multi makes sense because- Most of us spend a great deal of time dressing up our canopys to ensure a good deployment. We carefully flake and fold the canopy, and carefully place it into the container.
More often than not what I have seen with a single point attachment is that usually the center cell is pulled violently out of the container leaving the other 6 cells behind thus negating all the hard work of dressing up the pack job. At that point, it's a crap shoot. You might have an on heading opening you may not.

I don't wish to imply that with out the Multi you'll always have off heading openings. Clearly this is not the case. My point is that in the sport of BASE it is often not just one big thing that ruins your day it is actually several small things working in concert to become that one big thing. If we take the time to try an eliminate those small things then our chances for success are that much better.
I have heard that some do not like to multi and have decided not t use it. I'd be interested in hearing their opinions. I just thought of some other possible causes of off headings that could be eliminated by the multi but I have to split. I'll post more later
Kevin

[KevinMcGuire 0]

O.K. I'm back,
Where was I? Oh yea... Tail pocket inversions. Before I begin, let me first say that what I have posted and what I'm about to say are theories and therefore under constant review
What is tail pocket inversion?
Imagine a canopy that is being extracted from a container and the lines are playing out. when things are going correctly, the lines play out of straight down and thus are less likely to contribute to a heading problem. However, if the tail pocket becomes inverted, the opening where the lines exit the tail pocket is now facing up or horizontally. The lines will then have no other choice but to exit the tail pocket and then pass directly over either the top of the tail pocket or the top or bottom skin and trailing edge of the canopy itself depending on which way the tail pocket inverted. When this happens, it becomes possible for the trailing edge of the canopy to be turned either right of left and thus helping to induce a turn. The resulting turn may then be made more pronounced as bottom skin inflation occurs do to the jumper swinging under the now inflating canopy. Damage to the canopy may also occur as the lines move swiftly past the F-111 resulting in burns.
While I concede that supporting the tail pocket may not prevent tail pocket inversions %100 of the time, I feel that the logic behind the idea is sound. Again, these are just my thought on this subject and I welcome other opinions

[Possum 0]

How does multi support the tail pocket? I had heard of strip prevention and and heading, but not that.
Mitch
P.S. The container works great, thanks again dude.

[riggersam 0]

From BR's website:

"The Multi increases the number of bridle lifting points from the typical one point to a total of four points. The single attachment in the center is used as well as two more lifting points on each cell outboard from the center. The fourth point is to the rear of the center cell. The three forward points are responsible for lifting the canopy in a normal fashion and the outermost cells follow smartly. The rear point is to support the Tail Pocket which is heavy with suspension lines."

[DaveO 0]

I don't have hundreds of jumps so take this for what it's worth. I have two Fox canopys. One with and one without a multi. I can't tell any difference between the two when it comes to on heading performance slider off. They are the same size and both V-tec's. One is in a Vision (The single point attachment) and one in a Reactor 4.
I do believe in the multi when it comes to terminal jumps though.
I doubt there will ever be a agreement on whether the multi is better than a single point attachment. I go with what I feel comfortable with.

"When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion"

[DaveO 0]

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the numbers don't lie. in the past 700 jumps I have had very few openings that were greater than 45 off heading, (Less than 10) and none that were greater than 90.

Wow! You need to make a packing video. I'll buy one. I must pack more like PerFlare.

"When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion"

[KevinMcGuire 0]

I should say that my first 50 jumps were not so great. I did just about everything you can think of wrong and some how managed to get through it. I have towed P/C's, had 9 line over's, WAY over delayed (and nearly paid for it), had 4 180's, line twists, jumped from one building only to find my self in free fall over the tall building across the ally, and yes my big ass has even blown up canopies. You could say that I've been tested. A rational person would have quit but I don't know any.
It was only after my 3rd REALLY REALLY close call that I did something to change things. I became a rigger. Not some part time weekend rigger but a full time, eat , breath, and sleep rigging type rigger.
I'd work all day in a loft then go out all night and jump. Each night I would jump new packing ideas that I had learned or come up with during the day. I had lots of good and lots of bad ideas, and as a result of the bad ideas, I became really good at repairing canopys. Go figure.
Also I sought the advise of those who were doing it better than me in my area. Mainly the folks at BR. Todd, Annie, and Marty back when he worked there. much of my success I owe to them.

Now I don't mean to say that becoming a rigger will cure everyones opening problems or that the only fountain of knowlege is at BR, but if you really study parachutes, their construction, how to pack them, their opening dynamics, and the conditions in which you choose to jump, you'll find that making a parachute do what you want is really not that hard. After all, they are just parachutes. How does that saying go... "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
In the beginning, I approached BASE the way my mentors had. that is to say that there was a certain amount of magic involved in my surviving each jump. That way of thinking (which was the style at time) nearly cost me my life.
Does everyone need to devote their life to this as I have? Clearly No. but I do think that in order to have true longevity in this sport, it might take just a bit more effort, training, and education than most are willing to get.

[PerFlare 0]

Kevin,

If you do not mind let's try to keep the discussion on the multi and if the benefits and disadvantages of using it. I do agree (most do) that there are allot of factors involved in a canopy deploying. On the other hand I do believe some factors are more dominant then others like body position.

<< I have heard that some do not like to multi and have decided not t use it. I'd be interested in hearing their opinions. >>

Yes, that's why I post my first reply to this thread. I am one of those people.

If you have a good body position during deployment I would agree (and have a decent packjob on your back and no crosswind) that it might be a benefit to have a multi. In the other case (not perfect body position or crosswind or anything that makes the extraction skew) my opinion are that using a multi makes the canopy more sensitive and more likely to open off heading.

So for me, who have a more random body position, I believe that I have more disadvantages of the multi then benefits from it. If you consider more aspects of the multi then just heading performance like the increase of complexity in the system it self and the more variables it allows and then ad the cost of it.

There are two (there are more but to try to keep this discussion on the subject) major benefits that comes to the multi. It supports you tailpocket during the extraction and it prevents center cell stripping. I do agree that tailpocket inversions are a problem. Center cell stripping on the other hand are very ugly to look at but I am not so sure it really are as bad as it looks.

There is naturally a chance that I simply are a poor packer, have too little training and education or just not enough drive and devotion to understand the benefits and disadvantages of the multi or the many other aspects of rigging and gear configuration. That makes this discussion an opportunity for me to learn something :)

PerFlare

[KevinMcGuire 0]

Quote

Kevin,

Sorry for getting side tracked. I sensed a bit of sarcasm in Daveo's post and I just wanted to put it to bed.
Please accept my following words as fuel for debate and not tools to insult.

(So for me, who have a more random body position, I believe that I have more disadvantages of the multi then benefits from it.)

It sounds to me as if the problem is not the multi but the larger issue. Your body position. It is not reasonable to expect a system to work as intended with out the proper input from the jumper and if the jumper will not work to ensure good body position then it is not the multi's fault.

(If you consider more aspects of the multi then just heading performance like the increase of complexity in the system it self and the more variables it allows and then ad the cost of it.)

What could be more important than heading performance? It is often the difference between life and death. should that take a back seat to increased cost and a slight increase in complexity? IMO the slight increas in complexity is no so great that it becomes a saftey factor. Do you dissagree?


( Center cell stripping on the other hand are very ugly to look at but I am not so sure it really are as bad as it looks.)

The key to this statement is that your not "Sure" if it is as bad as it looks. Wouldn't you want to be sure or at the very least, reduce the possibility than leave it up to chance?
Please bare with me on this next thought. It is not a side track. It is directly relevant to this thread.

I think everyone understands what will happen if your risers are uneven while packing and are left that way. Which ever riser is the shorter of the two will dictate the direction the resulting turn. This is due to the fact that the shorter side will load first and draw the canopy in that direction.
To a lesser degree the same it true with regards to the bottom skin. If while performing the final bottom skin flaking and one side is mistakenly drawn to far over so that there is more material on one side than the other, then it will effect the opening in the same fashion as a riser being uneven. It will lead to an asymmetric inflation and promote a turn. Remember that I said to a lesser degree, but still important. The degrees of success in a pack job is equal to the sum of ALL it's parts
Without the multi, I believe that any attempt to maintain an even and symmetrical bottom skin all the way to bottom skin pressurization is next to impossible due to the violent and random way a single point extracts the canopy.


Kevin

[Faber 0]

Quote

<< I have heard that some do not like to multi and have decided not t use it. I'd be interested in hearing their opinions. >>

Yes, that's why I post my first reply to this thread. I am one of those people.

In my eyes is that to have a look at a subject and then denye to have anything to do whith it whith out even get the posetive reactions aswell,that can be a bad choise(not in this Q but other places).

Quote

If you have a good body position during deployment I would agree (and have a decent packjob on your back and no crosswind) that it might be a benefit to have a multi. In the other case (not perfect body position or crosswind or anything that makes the extraction skew) my opinion are that using a multi makes the canopy more sensitive and more likely to open off heading.

i do not agree whith you.ofcours will bad bpody position make a bad opening,but i dont think the multi makes it worse,fact is that i have had not so good bodypossitions sometimes aswell,but whith a perfect onheadding anyway..

I have done serval jumps i crosswinds,and thouse jumps were i had offheadding(and videoed from the ground),you can easily see that befoe the multi ever is open,the PC and the bridel are forces to one or other side(depends on winds). i do belive that the same setup whith out multi would do the same.

Reason i use multi is that i belive that i have a setup that gives the same preformance as regular bridel,and then i get some benefits aswell.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[K763 0]

Stay tuned for a post from the designer of the Multi.

thanks all,
K

[PerFlare 0]

Kevin,

<>

That’s true. I can’t do much about it so I have to live (or die) with it. I have to adjust to it and doing so one thing is not to use the multi.

<>

No, it should not but in the real world it does for allot of people. That does not apply for me because I did get the multi but I do not use it anymore. That’s why we have this constructive discussion.

<>

So you are sure that center cell stripping is as bad as I look? There are few things in this world I am sure about … center cell stripping is not one of them.

<>

I agree. But as I have stated before I do think some factors are more dominant than others. I think a clean packjob are more important when it come to not having a mal function. I am not sure that (if we not take it to extremes) a super clean packjob are the dominant factor of heading performance.

Do not take this the wrong way Kevin, I do believe, as you do, that you should pay attention to detail and you should do everything to make things as safe as possible. I do emphasize allot on safety, you can check that with my team mates if you like :)

So if get back to the subject, I do believe that one of the disadvantages of the multi is that it is more sensitive to body position. As you say on heading performance are paramount for survival in this game but the issue you and I disagree on are if the multi is helping heading performance or not.

- - - - - -

Faber,

<>

Hey buddy, I am not sure we (or at least I) understand you completely this time. I am sorry about that.

<< i do not agree whith you >>

That’s perfectly okay. The thing is that I do not think that a multi is the same as a single attachment with benefits.

- - - - - -

Karen,

I would love to hear BR (I guess Todd is the designer) thoughts about the multi.

PerFlare

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

<>

That’s true.

I can't be the only one who's laughing at PerFlare's continued protestations that he has terrible body position.

Per, I respectfully disagree.

Quote

Faber,

<>

Hey buddy, I am not sure we (or at least I) understand you completely this time. I am sorry about that.

It's also amusing to see two Scandinavians trying to converse in English, and having trouble understanding. Somehow, I think that Swedish and Danish are a lot closer than either is to English. But, personally, I still prefer bad english.


In all seriousness, I think that the big difference between Per's results and Kevin's probably has more to do with wind than body position. Kevin is a long time jumper, and as such has the luxury of perspective (and wisdom) to not jump when the wind kicks up.

Per, on the other hand...I seem to remember hearing "see ya!" over my shoulder as he plummeted off an exit point in pitch blackness and swirling wind. Only Dogs and Swedes are that crazy. And not even all the Swedes.

edit: that and I seem to recall hearing Kevin say that he generally prefers light to no wind for the lowish cliffs in his area, and I believe PerFlare said that he thought his multi/heading issues were worse in wind.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Faber 0]

Quote

<>

Hey buddy, I am not sure we (or at least I) understand you completely this time. I am sorry about that.

Hey dont be,this aint always easy i know its my bad so no worryes

What i meant were: I think its bad to base an oppinion after just have heard about a "bad" thing from one site,others might have another weiv and could tell what to do about it.Most people just make this mistake(inkluding me).
Have a open mind,and listen to all oppinions before making a dessision.
Per,this aint only to you it were a genneral statment

Karen,im REALLY interested in that info,specialy about using it in LOW jumps.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[KevinMcGuire 0]

" Kevin is a long time jumper, and as such has the luxury of perspective (and wisdom) to not jump when the wind kicks up."

I was not aware that caution or safety was a luxury. Most of the time it's a just a pain in he ass. Especially when it forces my to climb down. Each of us must do what we think is best for our selfs and in the end we can only hope that we've made the right decisions.
Good luck guys. Keep it fun

[TomAiello 25]

Sorry. That was meant as a friendly poke at PerFlare's gung ho jumping style.

Everyone has a different tolerance for risk, and correspondingly varying tolerances for conditions.

I think that your personal jumping style shows far better judgment, and far more concern for safety, than the average jumper. I admire you for that.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[KevinMcGuire 0]

I didn't honestly beleive that you thought "throwing caution to the wind" was cool. I was just poking fun back

[PerFlare 0]

Tom,

<>

That is a little bit funny, but we Scandinavians are just being polite with you English speaking people.

<>

ahem … yes … that jump are a perfect example on what not to do. You can’t even disguise that enormous lack of judgment for … what’s that name again … yes, hardcore ;)

<>

Yes, especially in crosswind.

PerFlare

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

<>

Yes, especially in crosswind.

This seems intuitively simple. I'm just thinking aloud, here, so bear with me, but...

If the PC is pulled to one side (left or right) of the pack job as it extracts:

a) a single bridle attachment will "tilt" the canopy a little bit, but mostly it will rotate around the single bridle attachment.

b) a multi bridle attachment will spin the pack job more. One of the multi lines will load first, causing the same kind of spin that you see when you load one riser first (just on the other side).

Hmmm. Let me think about this some more and try to organize some more coherent thoughts...

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[leggit 0]

I was speaking to one very experienced Aussie jumper the night about this, as my new canopy does not have a multi. He was most adamant that although one multi line may load first on an asymmetric deployment, the damage would already have been done by the crap body position, and therefore, it is kind of redundant to speculate that the multi may accentuate this. I guess he though that this may only ever be an issue if you had already deployed shoulder down, in which case you are already in trouble. Made sense to me.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

I guess he though that this may only ever be an issue if you had already deployed shoulder down, in which case you are already in trouble.

No. It could definitely load one side first in a crosswind, even with perfect body position.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com