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TomAiello

Boyfriends and BASE

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Here is a secondhand story associated with the topic:
A super tracking student of mine told me about an incident at Lauterbrunnen where the instructor was adamant that his student does jump (handheld). Meaning in his opinion that he pushed her to jump, and handheld was the way. She was by my students account, terrified. But her instructor insisted that she would jump. She apparently had all the signs of a “No Go” to my student. He feels that the instructor was pushing her to jump.
Later.
Someone was looking for motorcycle BASE jumper tipps, like how to do it. This was from an exp. jumper.
Since I had worked with this with a motocross champ, I offered my assistance. It was denied. Then I heard the story…..She (Lauterbrunnen Lady) was a television star (with BASEr boyfriend) in her country, for a show of risk taking I believe. She crashed the motorcycle in a wide open area practicing to ride. She had not the ability (according to another BASE friend) to even ride a motorcycle for the stunt. Heli to the top, thankfully her and the boyfriend did not even consider jumping in the nice conditions. Her BF was not the one who was instructing her at LB.
I absolutely disagree with this type of instructor behavior. The people involved can flame me publically if they wish and I turn this into first hand accounts publically. Otherwise do it privately. You made a decision, and my thinking makes it wrong, and I am not so far off base I think.Feel welcome to criticize me.
Take care,
space

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Keely,

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I would have to say that women have a lower injury rate than men in either sport



What is your feeling on injuries per jump?

In other words, if you could draw a gender average per swoop, or per BASE jump?

Do you think that women have a lower chance of injury per jump of the same kind?
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I would have to say that women have a lower injury rate than men



because less women overall........

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a gender average per swoop, or per BASE jump?



excellent - a weighted average..........


be safe.......... be looking at statistics correctly!

M

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I would have to say that women have a lower injury rate than men



because less women overall........



Fewer women overall doesn't affect the injury rate. "Rate" takes into account the population differences. If 100 men result in 5 injuries and 20 women result in 1 injury, the rate is 5% for both.


First Class Citizen Twice Over

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Fewer women overall doesn't affect the injury rate. "Rate" takes into account the population differences. If 100 men result in 5 injuries and 20 women result in 1 injury, the rate is 5% for both.



True, but sample size will affect the reliability of the statistic. Especially very small samples.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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What is your feeling on injuries per jump?

In other words, if you could draw a gender average per swoop, or per BASE jump?

Do you think that women have a lower chance of injury per jump of the same kind?



Hey Tom,

The point I was trying to make is that you can't really say what the injury rate is without keeping detailed records of a large number of jumpers over a long period of time, which I have not been doing (and I don't know of any studies like this that exist, but please correct me if I'm wrong...)

If I were to start throwing numbers off the top of my head (based only on people who I know)... just from the past year, I have one female friend who has been injured (on a BASE jump), 3 male friends who were injured (all skydiving - only 1 related to swooping), and I have lost 2 male friends (1 a skydiving fatality - swooping, 1 BASE). There are far more incidents that I "know of" but it would take me all night to figure that out...

When I saw the thread "Boyfriends and BASE" I thought it might be about the emotional impact of relationships and BASE - as this definitely adds a whole new danger to the situation... But to say that women in general are getting injured at a much higher rate than men - I'm just wondering where these numbers are coming from???

Either way, as several people have pointed out, there is no harm in discussing it - so I apologize for responding negatively...

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...you can't really say what the injury rate is without keeping detailed records...



Of course not. That's why I had asked what your (subjective) impressions were. I wanted to match them up against mine, and add to my (still very subjective) data set.

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I have one female friend who has been injured (on a BASE jump)...I have lost 2 male friends (...1 BASE)



OK, so it sounds like you are saying that of your friends who BASE jump, one women was injured and one man was killed. To (over)simplify, that's a 50-50 incident ratio. At a rough guess, what percentage of your friends who BASE jump are men, and what percentage are women?

If it's about 50-50 men and women, then you are seeing an incident rate that approximates the participation rate. If the majority of your BASE jumping friends are female, then your male friends are more likely than your female friends to be involved in a BASE accident. If the majority of your BASE friends are male, then the females are having a disproportionately high number of incidents.

All of this is nowhere near generating meaningful statistics. It's just on the order of "feeling", "guesswork" and "approximation." For example, if your male BASE friends jump more often than your female friends, then the incidents per jump ratio would again skew toward the women (you get the idea).

I guess what I'm saying is that my "feeling" based on personal observation (what I've seen, heard about, or talked to other jumpers about) is that female student BASE jumpers are suffering from a higher incident per jump ratio than similarly situated males.

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...I thought it might be about the emotional impact of relationships and BASE...



Now that sounds like an interesting discussion. Perhaps we ought to start another thread on it.

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I apologize



Whoa. Apologies aren't necessary. This is a discussion, not an argument.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


...I thought it might be about the emotional impact of relationships and BASE...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now that sounds like an interesting discussion. Perhaps we ought to start another thread on it.



Ask my EX-Girlfriend - she would agree there is an impact on relationships!!!

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Hi Tom,

I decided to pull these numbers only from people who I know reasonably well... If I included people who I just barely know, I would include 1 more male BASE injury and 2 more male BASE fatalities... If I start including people I don't know but just heard about - well again I don't have time for that, but I think it would be a similar average.

Anyhow, I think these numbers are basically useless because it's just such a small portion. With numbers this small, all it takes is one female injury to change the statistics enormously, and I just don't think that's an accurate representation. In the 3-4 years that I have been interested in BASE, she is actually the only female that I know who has been injured. (And if you asked me this a month ago, I wouldn't have known any females who had been injured.) As for the percentage of male and female BASE jumpers I know, a *very* rough guess would be about 15-20% female (and I think I live where there is an unusually high number of female BASE jumpers)...

It would be nice if there were some way to actually get some good statistics about this... if there was one person (or organization) who people could report injuries to and this info could be analyzed over a few years - I think that's the only way we'll ever see any accurate "trends"...

Ok, I better shut up now and get ready for work :S

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I would have to say that women have a lower injury rate than men



because less women overall........



Fewer women overall doesn't affect the injury rate. "Rate" takes into account the population differences. If 100 men result in 5 injuries and 20 women result in 1 injury, the rate is 5% for both.



Rate versus ratio buddy. Rate is TIME related. Miles PER hour, meters PER second, and jumps PER injury. Ratio is number related.
How about this?
Number of jumps women make before object strike,
versus the number of jumps men make before object strike.
Then, we would have to factor in things like difficulty of objects, and then it sounds like ROCK CLIMBING, with rating scales. Of course, then it would only be an averaged approxiamation. Now, how about we look at:
Number of women in the sport 10+ years
Number of men in sport 10+ years
And compare injury per gender on a 1,000 jump average. Then, you would have a decent looking rate. "Injuries PER Thousand Jumps", we could call it.
What then? Would the rate tell you how many jumps a woman or man should make before stopping without injury? willing to give a guarantee on that number?
This post is not above judging "fitness" for the sport, but to discuss "Boyfriends and BASE". As in, how they affect us. Not judging who can BASE, or even who can teach. But how it affects us.
I have had problems with my Ex-girlfriend and BASE.
That's all,
Peace,
Thomas

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There are no statistics that say women get injured more in skydiving or BASE. To have these kind of statistics, first of all we would need a complete list of ALL jumpers including gender, and then every dropzone and every BASE jumper would need to keep records of how many jumps are made and how many injuries result from these jumps and then all of this information would need to be kept in one place and analyzed.


As long as you draw enough samples of an appropriate size from a population you will get an acceptable measure of what is going on in that population as a whole.

In 1999 the uspa did release an article indicating that women who made up 15% of skydivers had 24% of the deaths for the year. Nevertheless, due to the small sample size the results may be statistically insignificant. (only a year) So I will give you that. I was wrong saying that it was gospel that women get hurt disproportionately compared to men since the sample size is suspect for that study. I was going to do my own calculations, but the statistics part of uspa.org is down or the link is broken.

The jury is still out on the statistics, but I still think women get hurt disproportionately compared to men in skydiving. At least at my dz it seems that way, but I hope that changes. What I see happening is women jumping gear too big for them (remember the girl who fell out of her harness after deployment in 98'?) and getting graduated too soon and easily because they are so rare. (plus getting on bigger loads and freefly jumps for the same reason)

What Tom says about women in BASE is very intuitive. In fact, one could almost have known it just by observing human nature with regards to men and women in general. It doesn't make women any worse than men, nor does it have to make BASE (or skydiving) more dangerous to women, but there are issues that can do exactly that and needs to be addressed, and I'm glad Tom decided not to give in to the PC Police and not post it.

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I jump at a dropzone that I think has a higher ratio of females than most dz's - I'm guessing something like 20-25% female. I've been at this dz for two years now, one year of that working at the dz. During this time I have seen quite a few accidents (it's a big dz) and I can honestly only think of one of them where it was a female that got injured. I've lost count of how many men I've seen get hurt, but I could safely say at least 20 in the time that I've been here. That makes for a very low female injury ratio at my dz - but again I think these numbers are just too small to mean anything.

Anyhow, I've managed to turn Tom's thread into an argument about statistics and I really didn't intend to do that. I have thought about this and realized that no matter what the statistics are, if there is anyone out there who needs this advice (and obviously there are) then it is certainly worth saying.

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Yikes! With all this talk about females getting hurt less at my dz - I just realized I am totally setting myself up to be the next female injury (for the sake of irony). So I now take it ALL back and I am knocking on wood as I post this... :o

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Well I am not about to question your statistica Tom, but I do think that your article is filled with a ton of logic. I think that it is fine for a boyfriend to teach a gf in skydiving(it should be done for more than getting in her pants) but not in B.A.S.E. There should be someone distant and able to make the calls on whether someone should or should not do something. Those decisions are hard made when you think there might be reprocussions. Nice job on the article, my gf who is just starting skydiving this year asked me if I would take her B.A.S.E. jumping when she is ready and I forwarded this article to her. Thanks.

~Chachi

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Mick hit the nail on the head.

You don't know what you're getting into. You don't. You don't know what it feels like to see a friend splat. You don't know how it feels to be that scared. You don't know. If you did you wouldn't do it. Mentoring is like inviting someone to get hooked on heroin (not the pink stuff). You really have no idea.

Picture the 18 year old kid joining the marines. His preconceptions don't include watching his friends die, losing his hearing to artillary, getting STDs while in port. Not seeing his family for extended periods, lack of sleep...do I need to go on?

BASE is warts and all. There is no half way unless you live in Twin Falls. It hurts, it's uncomfortable, it uncovers flaws you're embarrassed to confront.

Ask yourself a question..."Why do I want to BASE jump?"

If you think it's kewl...It's not. Noone sees it.
If you think it's a buzz, snort some coke. It's cheaper and it lasts longer and it's better for you medically.
If you want it cos your friends do it...get some new friends cos if you BASE jump you'll have to do this anyway when they all die.
If you want to get laid...go to Vegas. It's cheaper and easier to photograph and sometimes it lasts almost as long ;-).

To wannabe's everywhere...don't do it.

It sucks. It takes too long to learn if you're gonna survive. It's too expensive. It's all bad.

Talk big, tell everyone you do it. Get laid, feel good.

But male or female...Don't roll the dice.

B|

You have been so advised.

Very sincerely,

Uncle Skin
$kin.

Prizes to anyone who gets to read my posts before Mr Aiello's son, Tom deletes them.

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Don't understand this one either. 2 Stars.

:S

Your profile says you're primarily a BASE jumper with USPA student status, 37 jumps and fly a Stiletto.
Or is that a 37 year old student who wears stilettos?

I'm thinking bigger than a gnome but shorter than an ogre...
$kin.

Prizes to anyone who gets to read my posts before Mr Aiello's son, Tom deletes them.

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Mick hit the nail on the head.

You don't know what you're getting into. You don't. You don't know what it feels like to see a friend splat. You don't know how it feels to be that scared. You don't know. If you did you wouldn't do it. Mentoring is like inviting someone to get hooked on heroin (not the pink stuff). You really have no idea.

Picture the 18 year old kid joining the marines. His preconceptions don't include watching his friends die, losing his hearing to artillary, getting STDs while in port. Not seeing his family for extended periods, lack of sleep...do I need to go on?

BASE is warts and all. There is no half way unless you live in Twin Falls. It hurts, it's uncomfortable, it uncovers flaws you're embarrassed to confront.

Ask yourself a question..."Why do I want to BASE jump?"

If you think it's kewl...It's not. Noone sees it.
If you think it's a buzz, snort some coke. It's cheaper and it lasts longer and it's better for you medically.
If you want it cos your friends do it...get some new friends cos if you BASE jump you'll have to do this anyway when they all die.
If you want to get laid...go to Vegas. It's cheaper and easier to photograph and sometimes it lasts almost as long ;-).

To wannabe's everywhere...don't do it.

It sucks. It takes too long to learn if you're gonna survive. It's too expensive. It's all bad.

Talk big, tell everyone you do it. Get laid, feel good.

But male or female...Don't roll the dice.

B|

You have been so advised.

Very sincerely,

Uncle Skin



No skin - you hit the proverbial on the head! and i dont mean those sheep you keep dressing up! B|


Nice words, Nice work!

when you popping over to your orginal home?!?!?!

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