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Ok, I know many people used these excuses. Most often that comes down to what they have been told (by the media and politicians) and are too apathetic or stoic to know anything else. Some (in particular many that write here) that profess to have a deep understanding of such matters still use these excuses and therefore are only exposing themselves as the fraudulent sentinels of the official conspiracy theories. When we fail to question the motives and reason for such important issues such as foreign policy and plain old mass murder, then we have lost everything that our ancestors have given their lives and souls to achieve for us. Only when our cushy lifestyles are removed will people decide to give a damn, most cannot foresee the imminent suffering that must take place for everybody to continue our current path.Once that suffering is on your own doorstep, it is usually too late. That is what worries me. Life goes on however, but not for everybody...

Yes they are excuses and I understand that. You presented them as valid reason for being at war, to consider them valid reasons you have to have a reason to think that way. My questions to you were questioning your reasoning, not mine.

Like I suspected. Another conspiracy theorist who thinks he knows it all. Do you realise you are describing yourself there? I ask questions, as true agnostic will. Anybody that asks questions for clarification is clearly not a know it all. Anyone that thinks they have the answer all the time is a know it all. Know it all's usually cling to the majority to gain the acceptance from the majority, thn thy can feel assured. This sense of assurance is only percieved. That is your approach. I used to think like you but used common sense and evidence rather than simply believing what I have been told. I have been lied to for decades, so I have grown accustomed to not being too sure about anything; this is something everybody should try. You will not be as easily lead astray if you think critically about everything, especially things yu are asked or told not to think critically about. You are either with us, or you are with the Terr'ists. You have answers to things even the most high profile experts cannot openly and honestly answer, apparently. I could ask you what you think of Nanothermite, the Gulf of Tonkin or The Zapruder Film you will know exactly where those questions are going and will attempt to ridicule me for asking the question instead of answering it, you will refuse to actually address the answer for each of those points as you KNOW the story you have been bread to believe has been proven beyond reasonable doubt to be complete lies, just like our old favourites, the weapons of Mass destruction.. Then your buddies will come along and do the same. Then it becomes a he said she said argument with straw man techniques and personal attacks. Everything but addressing the evidence and thinking critically about it. You won't actually address the question; you will attack me or the person that presents the question and deliver the official conspiracy ‘theory’ as fact. Your mindset is common and is usually a majority but in no way correct. This is happening in many forums the world around inline, unofficial and official. Usually greed and corruption prevails, so it is the safe bet. This still happens when the evidence is so overwhelming that it cannot be argued against, so ridicule, ignorance and denial are all that are left to defend the know it all standpoint. Every person, whatever they have decided to believe, is a conspiracy theorist. Unless they believe that any of these high profile crimes were carried out single handed by one person, such as the JFK assassination. Do you understand the definition of the term conspiracy theorist, or do you just use it like every other denier does to sidestep your own internal conflict with your morality? You throw that accusation around as if it does not apply to yourself. That makes you the conspiracy theorist know it all. Does it not? We are both talking to brick wall so no point in taking the debate any further.

No I relied on history and its documentation. We can delve into any aspect of any entity that holds any significant power, finance, or resources and we will find corruption. Can you agree with that? Those are your words. I cannot believe anything we are told by the media, what I know I can rely on, is that they do not tell us everything. Do you believe everything that is said by the media? Are the most important issues addressed by the media in your mind? Are you happy with the reporting of the Bin Ladin Assassination? Considering the administration was apparently watching it live, the story changed completely over the next couple of days and in the end it was announced that the truth was too much for the American public to see. That is one aspect that changed, it all changes so in the end we just have to accept that we are told what we are allowed to hear and are withheld the complete truth. How can we make concrete conclusions with half truths and obvious political spin? We can’t, I decide to be agnostic about it and will accept the evidence as it happens. I believe they are complicit by not exposing the complete truth. If they didn’t violently oppose a complete independent investigation with subpoena, and then they simply have something to hide. There is too many whistle blowers, witnesses and evidence that the official story is incorrect, but if you say that you are called a nutcase by people like you. Angry, violently opposing people, that uses straw man tactics to dance around the answer. I wish not to discuss it with you either as you are quite obviously one of these people so I will not bother wasting my time. The pipelines have been surveyed for several routes, whether or not they come into fruition will not reflect on the basis of the occupation in the region. If not to control the resources, to stop others becoming to powerful with them. Bush and Cheney are only 2 of a long line of corrupt politicians with links to large corporations that benefit financially with these decisions. Are you OK with your politicians making money from the wars they start? Afghanistan has never produced as much opium as it has since the war started. Controlling the poppies is more likely, Pharmecuticals are big business and they need poppies too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan The war has increased opium production. Lithium might just be a nice spoil or it may be bigger than we think, I remember reading about a 1 $trillion seam they found a year or two ago but who knows what spin that was. It is only hodge-podge to you as you are thinking of ways to ignore it while you read it; rather then ingesting and considering. You cannot openly deny it so you are forced to the old straw man tactic of insulting me rather than addressing the point. I used to believe what I was told until time and time again the story changes. Again, take WMD’s for example. We go to war in spite, and kill many people then we find out it is a lie, and we forget about it and leave it like water under a bridge with no accountability to those that blatantly lied to us. Vietnam? Gulf of Tonkin... 60,000 us troops ring a bell? I hold no allegiance to any political standing; I interpret things on my own. I will look at both sides. Usually the untruthful party is easy to pick out. Usually you just have to follow the money. You are right we are wasting our time debating each other; you are too set in your way to accept you are living a lie, and it is also quite obvious that you are quite bitter about it. None of us enjoy knowing that we support terror. How many people have been killed in afghanistan, you talk about the positive changes, how about the displaces families, dead and maimed children and so forth? So you are there to overthrow a government and establish a new country, or are you there getting the bad guys with the assitnce of the country. Which is it? we are spun so many different stories that it is impossible to keep up. In the meantime Sheppard boys are killed for fun, girls are raped and innocent people killed by air strikes from unmanned aircraft. Billions are spent, and your county is spiralling down the toilet bowl. Have you watched the money markets lately? I think you should overthrow your own government and get rid of the corruption there, and then we may have a chance at peace. The anti American doctrine comes from the murdering and arrogant attitude of the American people; this is created from the propaganda and nationalism. True patriotism is almost non existent now as it has been signed into law that patriotism is unlawful. Do not question authority. Do not stray from the heard. I have said my thing, and have spent already too much energy explaining myself. We are all free to interpret life as we choose. Try to be agnostic, try to find balance and try to love all. Have a nice day.

Are you proud to know the protection of your pride is enough of an excuse to slaughter thousands of innocent people? Do you accept/believe that murdering innocent people actually assists in reducing the hatred towards America and your cushy lifestyle? Is the threat of terror any less now than it was in 2002? Revenge, well that is an eye for an eye and just swings that revolving door we were just talking about. If you buy into these excuses, then you are ignoring the punch line. Fighting a war against terror ‘with’ terror is like putting out a fire with gasoline. Not that I beleive that is the objective, beleiving that objective is plausable or rational would make one nieve. Natural recources baby, that is what keeps the human social machine cranking.

OK. First the recourses The obvious is the oil in the Caspian sea ; Notice who was quoted mentioning the importance of the Caspian Sea natural recourses, and was vice president at the time of the beginning of the prompt and expansive Afghanistan war which is currently the longest war the United States has ever been in. Dick Cheney (among others) are not only involved in the government decisions in regards to these things, He(they) are beneficiaries of the profits that ensue if the wars continue. Watch this; "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbDfYzq_HaQ" So it is not only about the natural recourses that are needed to keep society moving forward, it is about the huge amount of profit that can be gained by the individuals that put in place the systems that keep the oil flowing, so to speak. Society will not stand for cold blooded murder for the sake of profit, so it has to be sold as something else. In this case freedom, democracy and fighting terror are the 'excuses' for murder. there is no resolve to the Afghanistan war, there was never meant to be, as long as the area is unstable, the military bases are in place and the contractors are getting the contracts, then the revolving door will continue to spin and the global population will pay for it in the name of uneven distribution of wealth. There are also other lucrative recourses like circa90%of the worlds opium poppies, lithium other mineral resources etc. the list goes on. In fact there is so much evidence of foul play, corruption, war crimes and plain old abuse of the system that one would almost have to be completely stupid to not be aware of it, then why are we not so aware? The mainstream media is also owned by the very same profiteers and therefore you are simply not told the actual truth, you are sold a story that ensures that we will allow the corruption to continue. I am sure we all know deep down that this is the case, just as I mentioned earlier, but a glimmer of the real truth hurts so much that one will violently oppose the complete exposure of all of it, as being aware and addressing it will remove the cushy lifestyle we have all grown accustomed to living, as long as it is the 3rd world over there and not here, it is OK. Right? It is fast becoming the third world everywhere as the hoarders keep on hoarding, and we continue to allow the corruption to continue taking the lives of innocent people. If you have been there, you will be well aware of what I am talking about. it just comes down the whether you are willing to expose yourself by admitting it. Which I doubt very much but I have at least given you insight to some of the reasons why I think the way I do. Now tell me in your own words, why you think the Afghanistan war is still going on, what it is going to/supposed to achieve and how well you think the operation is going?

Explain how those things do not fall in the, 'Power' category?

Why don't we turn this around and ask you what you think the Afghanistan war is about, why it is justified and how well the mission is going. You need not go into too much detail, just the limp edition will do. I am interested in what type of mind I am up against here. What are your thoughts on the matter, you know mine. And you are certain it hasn't...how?

No, I just look at human nature, whether it is about land borders, religion or whatever. Natural resources and power are all every war is about. Try to give an example of a war that is/was not about these things? Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely... Think about that well known saying, why it exists, and what you think the extent of human corruption is. Corruption and greed are the key. Most are not willing to be openly aware of the obvious as acknowledging the corruption and doing nothing about it makes one complicit. Being complicit makes one feel bad so it is easier to deny the obvious corruption that takes place than accept it. Such as the kid that made you cheap shoes/toys/electronics/clothes being paid sweet 'F' all for the favour. We try not to think about that because you would rather pay $50 than $150, we could stop the child labour by not purchasing the cheap stuff. You/we know it but (most often than not) choose to not think about it. We could also stop the wars by not accepting the propaganda the authorities and media give us, but who wants to be the one to make a fuss? Jeopardize their comfy and accepting lifestyle? Anyone? This attitude makes it easy for those with the power to manipulate the sheeple into believing what they want them to. Make a story, repeat it enough and then it is fact. Simple, take WMD's for example. Such as everybody believing the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war are about freedom and to end terror; rather than the distribution of natural recourses. These wars only create terror, hatred and unrest but they are necessary to gain the recourses that will allow us to enjoy our magnificent lifestyles and for the Corporations to make a pretty fortune by supplying it to us while maintaining the access to the recourses. Can you name one war that was not about the distribution of wealth, land or resources?

Certainly is disgusting... The Americans are selling the weapons to them in vast quantities also. We can't have more poeple standing up for their rights, that would undermine the immense freedom and democracy the Saudi people already have, Lol.

War always and will only ever be about power and natural recources. Obviously there is propoganda to lead you to beleive otherwise, but that is ususally quite transparent if you are willing to consider it.

Yes Argus' have saved lives, even very recently, but they are still banned. Electronics age, and when thay age they are prone to failure. They are also improved. But these 'improvements' do not necessarily make them more reliable. As these things age, we will see more failures. When we see a death from an activation that was out of the parameters of the unit, say at climbout, or door opening when there is a significant pressure change. Will the death of an entire plane load prompt these things to be grounded, or do we have to wait for that to happen first. If more people died by going in with nothing out and no AAD, which would be the case if they had not been invented; would our attitude be different, our opening altitudes higher? Exit altitudes have definately risen, yet some people still open at 2k. Students, those with heart troubles, tandems and some specific individuals should have mandatory AAD's. But it is clear that they are not full proof, they have the ability to kill a competant and concious skydiver through mechanical or electronic failure. Do we have to wait for that to happen before we get the choice? It seems AAD's are currently mandatory in more places than not. This is wrong in IMO. I do not usually post here, I just read, but this case prompted me to make an account so I could say my piece, I have done so, and will continue to jump without an AAD.

Or at least ensure that they are not mandatory to licensed jumpers anywhere, too many places have made AAD's mandatory. Recent events have clearly shown that an AAD can kill you and the jumpers you are jumping with.