dudeman17

I saw that on the Airtrash page a couple weeks ago, was saddened. I did some of her student jumps when she went through AFF at Elsinore in the early 90's. Beautiful human being, always bright, cheerful and positive whenever I saw her. And you're right - great, genuine smile.

Fly free indeed...

16 hours ago, EJU said:

Daily DB Cooper Bite. I discuss DBC's decision to ask the authorities for parachutes versus using his own equipment.

Eric, I think your idea that it would have been easy for Cooper to conceal and bring his own rig is mistaken. Gear of that era was fairly bulky, I think it would indeed have been difficult to conceal.

8 hours ago, Divalent said:

I certainly wouldn't trust a rig given to me by the authorities if I were in his shoes...  Even if I could assume they wouldn't jimmie it so I had a total malfunction, they might make the parachute small, or with other defects, that would ensure a rapid descent and a hard, injurious, landing.

I read somewhere that the possible reason he asked for more than one rig was so that they would give him good ones for fear that he might make someone else (Tina) jump.

2 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

Cooper came dressed in loafers and a suit, which are about the LAST things any experienced parachutist would want to jump while wearing.

You'd be surprised what people might wear on a jump. Suits, costumes, nothing but a rig...  It would be no problem at all to jump in a suit, which I would guess he wore to blend in with the other passengers. Just ditch the tie (which he did) so it doesn't beat you in the face. The issue would be the loafers. If they were dress shoe type loafers they might well blow off on a 200 mph exit. If they were high tops, like someone suggested they might have been, then more likely that they would stay on. Either way, I would think that would be more of a concern for hiking out of the woods than the jump itself. You said that he also had some kind of bag that you imagined might contain better boots. I would hope to agree with that.

2 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

On the question regarding Ha Ha Ha:  The character uses one of the chutes provided by the FBI. 

The reason I asked about that is because in that other book I read that I mentioned in an earlier post, written by a jumper from that era, his 'Cooper' actually did bring his own parachute. I don't recall how he got it on the plane unnoticed. Both books, though, have the hijacker actually jumping not over Washington, but on the approach to Reno.

Mr. Blevins, you said that you read that book 'Ha Ha Ha'.  You said that it's a work of fiction, but I'm curious - In that account, does the hijacker jump one of the parachutes supplied by the authorities, or does he have his own parachute?

7 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

Cossey claims none of the reserves had pilot chutes. none of the back chutes were opened on the plane. 

 

Front-mount reserves not having pilot chutes would be consistent for that era.

But the only way "E" makes sense is if that second chute described is the pilot chute, but 24 inches, not feet. Could it have been opened later for inspection by the FBI, and that info added to the report? 

1 hour ago, mrshutter45 said:

"Find info on a Steinthal 60-9707"

I'm still waiting on someone to show a photo of the chute mentioned above? 

Here's a thought that may clear up one of the mysteries. Is it possible that that second chute, described as "an integral part of the parachute" is the PILOT CHUTE for that rig? A pilot chute is a small, spring-loaded chute that pops out when you pull the ripcord. It anchors in the air and pulls out the primary parachute. It could be another FBI typo, perhaps it's 24 inches, not 24 feet. Don't know if the manufacturer/part number/serial number is consistent with that, but maybe Joe or 377 can find that out.

51 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

One thing we can eliminate, I think, is the idea Hayden would have owned a belly pack. I think that's 99% percent certain he wouldn't have bothered buying one.

It is 100% certain that Hayden would not have a belly pack to go with his bailout backpack. They are not compatible. A sport skydiver uses a sport main parachute that he packs up and uses however many times he jumps. The 'belly pack' is a front-mount reserve, packed by a rigger, in case his main malfunctions. The bailout backpack, packed by a rigger, does not use a front-mount reserve, because it IS a reserve in case the pilot/plane malfunctions.

There is a lot of conflict. But I think the whole thing stems from - Flyjack thinks that the one Hayden got back was not the one they found on the plane.

Now you just said, "If two backpacks were found on board..." - but that's not right is it? I thought it was established that one backpack and one front-mount were found on board. So that's where the problem starts. Cooper uses one backpack, it's gone. One backpack is found on board. If that's not the one they gave back to Hayden, that would mean that that rig was never on the plane. A question - The front-mount that was found on board, did they give that one back to whoever it came from?

Got any more of those Excedrins?

17 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

 

As far as the parachute question, i.e. could there have been FIVE chutes on board, I just don't know what's going on with that. All previous information going back decades has said only four chutes were provided and that one of them was the dummy trainer. So...I just don't know what to say on that. The reports are a bit conflicting in some parts. 

 

Robert, I think the part you're not getting about the 5/6 parachute theory is, that not all of them were on the plane. I'm not saying that I subscribe to this theory, indeed I'm just interested in the one he used and how it might affect the success of his jump, but as I understand it... Cooper asks for 4 parachutes. Maybe a couple different agents get on that, I dunno, but perhaps someone gets 2 from Hayden, someone else gets 4 from Cossey or Sky Sports or whoever, but they end up giving Cooper 4 out of the six. The other 2 are no longer in play. It sounds like the one Hayden got back may have been one of those, the other one seems unaccounted for. The part that I question about all of that is, at least 3 of the backpack ones are bailout rigs, certainly the ones they gave him were. The 2 front-mounts are useless from the get-go, regardless that one of them was a dummy, because they don't have harnesses, and don't attach to the bailout ones. I think I speculated on this before, but maybe they did that on purpose - he asks for 4, they give him 4, but 2 of them are unusable, limiting how many other people he may have forced to jump. But they gave him 4, if there were 1 or 2 others, they were never on the plane.

If they were hi-tops, they'd certainly have a better chance of staying on.

Something else - Supposedly Cooper was wearing loafers, presumably of the dress shoe variety (since he had a suit on). Unless those things were fairly snug, I would expect that they might likely blow off on a 200 mph exit. That means he would be landing and hiking out in his socks. I hope he had feet like Cody Lundin.

2 minutes ago, timski said:

stop feeding it and maybe it will go away! 

The hope is to educate it so it doesn't go in.

I'm not a dedicated Cooper researcher, I just follow along out of curiosity. But it seems like a lot of time is spent debating minute details that seem superfluous to me. To me, the main questions are, exactly how did he pull it off, and of course the biggie, who was he? Like the parachutes - how many, who owned them, their serial numbers...? To me the operative issues would be specific to the one he jumped:

1. The size. For instance, a heavier person under a smaller canopy might have a greater chance of spraining an ankle or something on landing, affecting his ability to hike out. But Cooper seems like an average size guy. If he had experience, could pull off a decent PLF, he probably could have landed any of those ok.

2.The type of canopy, specifically whether it was steerable or not. If not, then he's pretty much at the mercy of the winds as to how far he drifts, and more importantly, exactly where he lands. If he lands in trees, rocks, on a steep hillside..., he has more chance of being injured. If it was steerable, then he has a better chance of landing unscathed in a flat, open area of his choosing.

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Question...

How rare would it be to hand write "F.B.I" with periods in between and not at the end in 1971?

Is that common, normal or standard? Is it a regional convention?

I would write it either "FBI" or "F.B.I." with a period after the I, but I am Canadian and have had less exposure to how "FBI" is/was hand written.

 

I don't know, but my question about that would be, are there a number of instances where you've seen that, or just once? If just once, it could be an oversight, faulty pen...? If it's a number of places, it could be an identifier.

1 hour ago, DerekGodsey12 said:

Humbled to have been suspended...

Yet your first post back you're pretty much doing the same thing. Go figure...

6 hours ago, 377 said:

Do you think Cooper had prior parachuting experience? Just wondering. 

377

The surface answer is, I don't know, but I would think so. I've always been fascinated by the case, but I've never done any intensive study of the details. I've seen whatever documentaries I've come across, read a number of articles, and follow this thread out of curiosity. Most of the Cooper researchers seem to think he did, and I couldn't imagine someone trying to pull this caper off without having at least some experience. The deeper answer - I suspect he may have been a very experienced, current jumper. But I'll have to PM you as to why I think that.

Ha, I remember Paralerts. I've never worn an audible, could never fathom the idea that you should need one. (Though I have always thought that they should design one with a snooze button.) The best altimeter on the planet is... the planet. That's the one that will never break down and lie to you. I jumped for years without any altimeter, put one back on when I got instructor ratings. I use an altimaster analog, they're easy to see, never need batteries, and they're easy to adjust - when I'm doing AFF I always sync mine with the student's at their pull altitude on the way up.

You also asked something a while back about drop zones owning chutes,'keeping a few around in case someone wanted to make a first jump...'

Actually yeah, drop zones definitely have student gear specifically for training first jump (and beyond) students. In fact, that's the bread and butter of their business. The idea of someone coming up with their own rig, and showing up at a dz to give it a try, that ain't gonna happen. In those days it was a static line program, you did a few of those and transitioned to freefall with short to increasing delays. These days first jumps are either tandem or AFF, freefall jumps from full altitude. Static line is all but obsolete these days, as are round parachutes.

Which begs the question - Have any of you Cooper researchers ever made a jump? It would be real easy for you to find a drop zone near you and do a tandem jump to check it out.

Hmmm.  Never knew Pete Best was a skydiver.

Sorry

The back bailout rigs don't have D-rings to attach the front reserves because they basically ARE reserves. Someone a while back said something about 'no one delivering D-rings' to hook them up'. I doesn't work that way. The D-rings are sewn into the harnesses of sport mains.

The front-mount reserves do not have harnesses and could not be independently jumped - there'd be no way to attach the parachute to the person.

I read or heard somewhere that the possible reason that Cooper asked for 4 parachutes was so that they would give him good ones for fear that he might make one or more of the crew jump. The fact that they gave him 2 unusable ones, dummy or not, especially if they came from different people is kind of strange. Perhaps they were being clever, 'yeah we gave him the four he asked for', but only two are usable.

The thing about Cossey moving the ripcord on one of them. Like Mark said, that's not that unusual, there are a number of reasons that might be done. The weird thing about that is, in that article about the parachutes that I believe Flyjack linked a while back, Cossey figured Cooper for a no-pull bounce because he thought that rig would be difficult for a non-experienced jumper to deploy. That doesn't make sense to me. Anywhere you could mount that thing on the front of the harness, it would be in reach. If anything, it may confuse an experienced jumper a bit if it's not in the 'normal' place (I doubt that, though), whereas a novice would just see where it is and figure that's what you pull. Also, Cossey, an experienced jumper and rigger, thinks that an inexperienced jumper would have a hard time deploying it, yet he would normally give it to a pilot (remember it's a bailout rig) who's probably NOT an experienced jumper? Cooper would have a lot more time to figure out the pull from 10 grand than an aerobatic pilot who's about to go in would. Hell, that rig could have been on Tina's back.

Anyway, I'm not a rigger, certainly not a 70's rigger, but I am a 40-year skydiver/instructor and here's a few general things about the parachutes. 

The measurement, 24', 26', 28', refers to diameter, not length. That was a typo/misunderstanding by whoever typed that report.

Harness/containers and the parachute canopies are separate things, they connect at the connector links between the risers on the container and the lines on the canopy. That means that the container could hold whatever size canopy the rigger put into it, as long as it fits.

(Is there a way to turn the 'suggestion' thing off? This thing keeps changing things I write. Like Flyjack and back...)

Geez, I'm about to hit Blevins up for one of his Excedrin, and I'm just an old skydiver trying to follow along out of curiosity. I can see both of your theories, but, if I've got this right, the part of Flyback's theory that Blevins isn't getting is that the rig Hayden got back wasn't on the airplane. If they got 6 rigs, 4 back and 2 front, but only gave Cooper 2 of the bad ones, one of Haden's and one of Cossey's, then the one Hayden got back was one of those 2 not given Cooper. Is that right? If so, the other Cossey backpack seems unaccounted for.

Remembering...

for whatever reason, every time I hear this song it makes me think of them..

Not that anyone probably cares, but it would seem that the point of my earlier post has been missed by some. The point was: 'Cooper' is a decades-old case that most of the world has forgotten about save for a handful of writers, amateur sleuths, aging parachutists, and other curious folks. One would hope that you could all find common ground and get along, even among 'friendly' disagreement about suspects and circumstances.

A thought about the earlier disagreement: Mr. Shutter, if, after 48 years, you can't wait a few more weeks for your choice from a plethora of photographs, I don't know what to tell you. Actually, I do know, and it's this: If a trespassing Eric were to get mowed down by an errant Flatbed Ten logging truck, Weyerhaeuser could revoke Mr. Blevins' permit faster than an 80's NPS Ranger. Would that bother anyone else?

Also, Mr. Shutter, I'll make you a friendly wager. If Blevins comes across an odd penny loafer or an unexploded roll of quarters, then you have to publicly declare that Klansnic was Cooper. If not, then a free tandem skydive awaits whichever of you is willing to show up to Elsinore on the hottest Saturday in August. [Disclaimer:Temperaturemustbeatleast115degrees.Tandempassengermustweighlessthan250lbsandbeabletoclimb4feetofladder.PassengermustalsopromisenottopersonallysuemeifImanagetogetusbothkilled,andmustalsoagreethatifyouthrowuponmeIwillcutyouawaylikeabadparachute.]

Dropzone.com is a skydiving website. I'm a skydiver. I'm going to tell a story about skydivers. This happened some years ago.

For background, skydivers, like many adventure sports enthusiasts, like to video stuff. These days, those lightweight tiny Go-Pros are everywhere. But before they came about, back when those handheld camcorders were the thing, if a skydiver wanted to video stuff they had to set up a helmet with a camcorder mounted on the top. There's also a piece of skydiving gear that is known as a Dytter. It's a little thing about the size of a matchbook that you'd also mount on your helmet, and what it does is, you set it for a certain altitude and on the way down it beeps in your ear. You wouldn't want to rely on it for your life, but it's a handy little back-up reminder. Any skydiver would instantly recognize one, pretty much nobody else would.

Anyways, where I was living, there was a ski hill not far away. Small place, not too popular, but it had some good steep runs and I could be there in an hour. So one day, like many, I went there by myself to get some runs in. After one particular run, I pull up to the chairlift line and there were these four guys ahead of me, and one of them had a helmet cam on. Didn't recognize any of them, but I says, 'Gee, that's cool, got a camera there to film your friends skiing...' They kinda half-heartedly turned around, 'Yeah, sure..' turned back amongst themselves. 'But', I continue, 'just where on the hill does that Dytter go off?' They all quickly turned around, looked at me with much more interest. 'What? You know what a Dytter is? You jump?'...

Turns out they were jumpers from a different dropzone I hadn't been to, but we ended up skiing together for the day. I visited them at their dz, we all became friends. A couple years later, one of them went in. I was on his ash dive, and I cried...

Camaraderie over a shared interest. It's fuckin' cool. You guys should try it.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Goin' jumpin' tomorrow...