likestojump

I know this thread is OLD, but I am sure I would get yelled at for making a new one.

Those of you who have jumped or own(ed) Icarus Beta's - what did you think of them ?

thanks !

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> I am saying that for SOME people if a person were buying a PDR reserve,
>they would perceive one that has no rides to have a higher value.

Ah, I see what you mean.

However, I would suggest that that is true with ANY reserve. Any reserve with 20 repacks is going to be at about the same level of wear. The difference with PD reserves is that you know it's been repacked 20 times. With, say, a Tempo, it might have been repacked 40 times, but there's no way for the buyer to know that, so he might buy it assuming it has 10 repacks.

So from the perspective of a buyer not knowing what state the reserve is in, I could see how the 40-repack Tempo might fetch a higher price than the 20-repack PD.

you are extrapolating my statement Bill :)

I was merely making statements about the PDR as that is what was ridden in the situation that started this thread. I am also trying to stay with facts and not hypothetical situations. Another valid conclusion is that as PD have a higher MSRP than other reserves, thus they have a higher resale value all other things being the same. A certain psychographic of "PD snobs" also has an effect aswell :) Of course, yet another fact irrelevant to the current thread :)

In my experience the most repacks I have seen was 7 on a square and 13 on a round, but I doubt there's many people bold enough to represent a 40 jump reserve as having 20 or less rides. This of course is neither here or there...

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>But the concern that such manufacturer policy builds is what devalues the
>canopy aka the perceived value.

?? Not from what I have seen. Small PD reserves (used) are selling for far more than used Micro Raven reserves because of their design; they tend to result in fewer broken bones on landing. And yet the Micro Ravens have no inspection limits.

I am not arguing that. But you and I are talking about different things. Think apples to apples, not apples to oranges :)

I am looking at NEW/unused PDR vs used and/or ridden PDR. Basically the population for my statement is ALL PDR reserves, and the sample are/is the PDR's that have been ridden. I am saying that for SOME people if a person were buying a PDR reserve, they would perceive one that has no rides to have a higher value. And I am basing that conclusion upon conversations with MANY people and some responses to this thread.

Please note that I am not making a blanket statement - this does not apply to ALL situations, ALL people, or ALL reserves (PD or not).

Wow, this is actually an interesting and stimulating discussion

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Just because the manufacturer wants them inspected every X jumps or pack jobs doesn't mean they're wearing out any faster. It's just prudence. Sort of like having a fire extinguisher inspected every X days.

But it's sure true a lot of people want low jump/packed reserves. I think this is much more psychological than anything else though.

I agree with you on all points. Here's what I think about BOTH of your statements :

I am sure the percentage of reserves that get retired by PD is minimal. But the concern that such manufacturer policy builds is what devalues the canopy aka the perceived value.

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Obviously a reserve is in the rig to be used when needed, however it is not intended to be used frequently. Therefore the number of jumps on a reserve decreases the value of the reserve, the same as the age of the equipment.

I don't think the design of reserves is all that much different than mains as far as construction and materials. I'd guess that it'd take hundreds of jumps for wear and tear to set in, but I'd love to hear if I was wrong.

FACTS :
1)The design of the reserve is such that the manufacturer (PD) feels that it needs to inspect it every 40 packjobs OR 25 rides, whichever comes first.
2)F111 canopies wear out ALOT faster than ZP (PDR is all F111)
3)Talking to some people who test jumped PDRs, they said they really felt the different in flare/flight after as few as 40 terminal openings
4) more of survey based assumption, but for the purpose of the argument, I consider it valid. : a few people in this thread indicated that they would be put off by the reserve having jumps on it - thus the presence of ride(s) will narrow the potential consumer market - I perceive that as loss of value

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My personal opinion:
1. The conditions were "try before you buy." Since he had no intention of buying, he shouldn't have done any trying. You wouldn't be out of line to charge a reasonable rental fee, but I wouldn't count on getting it.
2. He needs to return the gear in the same condition he got it. That means repacked. If you don't trust his rigger, ask him to return the rig unpacked with a check made out to your rigger for the cost of a repack.
3. When I price out a reserve I'm mostly looking at the age, number of repacks, and any damage that has been repaired. I'm not concerned about the number of jumps, unless it is a lot. I wouldn't ask for, or expect, any compensation for that.

thank you for a good answer.

what if the reserve had a DOM of 2007 with 3 repacks and no rides ? Do you think that the addition of a ride would make a difference in your decision ?

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Your rig saved his life. He owes you a repack.

Agreed.
That being said, every try-n-buy, just like every jump, is by definition a potential reserve ride. To avoid disputes from any ambiguity (real or perceived), responsibility for reserve re-pack is best set down in writing in advance.

I smell somebody with a JD.
I in fact do have that spelled out. I state that buyer "is responsible for any and all costs that are not part of regular wear and tear. To include all costs associated with acts negligence"

I'm really not trying to argue with you. "Spelled out" means spelled out. Your language is fine, but does not spell out the issue we're discussing. So all I'm saying is that it doesn't specifically provide for repacks in the event of a reserve activation, and thus it is an ambiguity re: that issue - no matter how "obvious" you thing the more general langage may make it.

If I were your JD, I'd have your documents specifically state something like "in the event of an activation of the reserve canopy, the borrower will be responsible for the cost of repacking said reserve by a certified rigger,"... or some kind of language to that general effect. That's all. (I discuss this in post #26, above.)

I prematurely hit "reply". I agree that any ambiguity is best attacked by being mentioned by the name in the contract. I wasn't trying to imply that I disagree with you, I was just trying to say that I have thought of that. Of course, I am always refining the docs :)

Dear Rehmwa, I will dissect your post into a few pieces :

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if he didn't offer the cost of the reserve repack, then he's as cheap as you, but I bet he did.....

oh really ? And why are you calling me cheap ? Do you know me ? Did I state evidence of any action that I took that would classify me as cheap in your perception? Why don't you stop reading what I did not write. Thank you.

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there's no loss of value with a single jump on a reserve - that's nuts - did he damage the reserve in any way? did the main land in power lines or on a barbed wire fence? did the reserve pilot chute get bent? those all matter, but a jump cycle? nuts

he owes you a repack, that's all, a whole repack and no pro-rated pack dollars either - preferably a repack at your rigger, not his though.

Thank you. I do think stating "i think" would make you sound a lot nicer. You are talking about perceptions and values, not about solid material facts. Unless of course you have legal evidence to justify that. And we move on to :

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if you're really going to whine about it, you could ask for a single jump rental fee? and that would be pretty petty too

WHO IS WHINING ? I asked for opinions, I did not ask for people to take pity on me. I did not even state how happy or upset I was with the situations. You are assuming. again....

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He should send your rigger a bottle of liquor though for the save - that the only thing here that makes sense to me.

And this part I agree with 100%.

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tell me, how do you have the value of the rig so PERFECTLY dialed in that a single jump on one of the canopies will affect the sell price? Considering the variation of sale prices on used rigs, that's very impressive

Tell me, where did I say that I have the value of a rig PERFECTLY dialed in ? When I mention the reserve ride possibly being worth $$$ - I never put a value on it. As far as being dialed into the used market - I have sold way over 100 rigs in the last 2 years, and over 300 canopies. I do think that I have a pretty good gauge on the market. Some posters in this thread have bought from me.

Cya

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... what if the original in-date packjob was sealed by a very well known and respected master rigger, would YOU still have your rigger do and I&R ?

Absolutely. You seem to be having a difficult time believing that people feel this way, even after several have written the same thing. Someone may jump a reserve packed by your favorite rigger, but to buy it unseen is another story.

Dear kkeenan, this is your second reply to me, and you are 2 for 2 in ASSUMING what I think and feel. Please don't assume.

In fact, I don't have a difficult time believing that one may want to get an inspection. I am merely looking for data points.

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Your rig saved his life. He owes you a repack.

Agreed.
That being said, every try-n-buy, just like every jump, is by definition a potential reserve ride. To avoid disputes from any ambiguity (real or perceived), responsibility for reserve re-pack is best set down in writing in advance.

I smell somebody with a JD.
I in fact do have that spelled out. I state that buyer "is responsible for any and all costs that are not part of regular wear and tear. To include all costs associated with acts negligence"

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Pre-buy for me would include popping the reserve for inspection by MY rigger, whom I trust. All riggers are not created equal!

What he said. In addition, without seeing it with my own eyes, how do I know for sure that it is what the seller says it is?

ok all. I am not arguing having a rigger look at the reserve. I am asking if you consider it reasonable to expect the "buyer" to provide a repack and pay some $$$ for loss of value.

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They were not buying a reserve, they were buying a complete rig.

Pre-buy for me would include popping the reserve for inspection by MY rigger, whom I trust. All riggers are not created equal!

That would be followed by a repack by my rigger and sent back in the condition I received the rig, if I did not purchase the rig.

moot point, as that's not part of the situation I am asking to evaluate :(

I am still thankful for your answer, to extrapolate - what if the original in-date packjob was sealed by a very well known and respected master rigger, would YOU still have your rigger do and I&R ?

ok, so looks like we all agree that a reserve repack is to be expected.

What about the subsequent loss of value due to the reserve use ? As they stated, it was THEIR negligence that caused the need for a reserve ride. And now when I will sell the rig it will we worth less as it has one extra reserve activation.

Furthermore, to solidify my point - they really did not even need to jump it, as they determined beforehand that the fit is not to their liking.

What do you say ?

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Did you expect them (or anyone) to buy your reserve without looking at it ? How did you expect to sell the reserve and keep the previous pack job intact ?

Kevin K.

They were not buying a reserve, they were buying a complete rig. The reserve was in date and had a seal on it. Please read what I wrote.

So I was selling a rig, and the person requested I ship it to a well known rigger in their area. After Inspection they determined that the harness is not that great of a fit, but decided to jump it anyways. A subsequent crappy main packjob resulted in a chop (their assessment, no mine). Now they say since the harness does not fit as well as they would like, they don't want to buy the rig.

Do you think it's reasonable to ask them to get the reserve repacked and inspected and add some extra $$$ on top as the chop was obviously due to packer negligence, and not gear malfunction ?

Points:
The rig was sent to them with the reserve in-date.
They were not charged anything as this was a try'n'buy
They were advised of the harness size and measurements prior to deciding to demo the rig
They agreed that they will be responsible for anything that's not regular wear and tear

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If you feel more confortable I can accept to receive only 450 euros first and you will send the remaining 450 euros after you receive and verify the rig.

That's a bum deal, do not take it.

The entire thing screams scam, 450 euros is a decent whack of money. No legit person wouldn't meet the basic guidelines.

Overseas, western union, general bad vibe.

I would say nop.

Ask him where he jumps at and try to verify with the DZO about the authenticity of the goods.

If he has no reference at all, I would be extremely suss.

ok, STOP.

enough is enough. This deal is a scam for sure, and doing anything more about it would be wasting ones time. Unless of course you want to just mess with the individual. Perhaps send him a fake MTCN # and insist the money has been sent.

here's a real MTCN for you 908-753-7081 if you wish to do that. Obviously, the $$$ associated with that number have already been picked up.

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The ad has been pulled down now it seems. Here is a copy of the first email I got:

Hi,
The rig is made to fit any person from 5'7" to 6'3". I am 5'11" and 190 lbs and the rig fits me great. What size are you ? And do you want to see more pictures ?

Regarding the shipping I can send the rig to the USA, no problem. I will pay the shipping taxes and you will pay the taxes from the payment. Of course, all of this are available only if you decide to buy the rig. So email me if you are interested

Ciao
Luciano

sounds like it's very likely to be a scam. The wording is quite similar to many others.

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Found a rig. It is a javelin dom around 01. Has a cypress with five years left and all maint. has been done. Has a sabre 210 and a tempo 210. Reserve has no rides and main has about 200. Container has 350 jumps. Looks great in pics. It is overseas though but member has been on here a couple years. Price for me would be about $1500. It sounds like a good deal, What do you guys think?

I bet is sounds very similar to this :

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?forum=44;

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And - god forbid you have a cypres that is 11 years, 6 months and 1 day old... Since it will be 12 years old within the new 180 day packjob, this document clearly states many riggers will refuse to pack it.

Cypres1 has a life of +3 Months past 12 years, so you would be fully legal no matter how you look at the regs. Cypres2 has a +6 month life

so..... one of my cats apparently brought a LIVE chipmunk home. I was woken up by one of the cats going crazy - and once I turned the lights on, there she was, chasing the little creature. Chased it somewhere, but I could not get it out of the house.

What would be the recommended for Humane remedies ?

I was figuring a small squirrel trap and then just let it out outside. I just don't want the damn thing to die in the basement :(

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Sound to me like whatever company makes those little cards should start printing ones with more information on it. Any idea who prints them?

You can print your own and they will be EXACTLY how you like 'em. Allen Silver's cards do have an "date due" - and I find it pretty useful for his clientele (pilots)

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Can anyone tell me for sure which month/year The The Crossfire2 started coming out ? As in the earliest DOM on the Crossfire2 and the latest on the Crossfire1 ? I have already emailed Icarus.

tnx !

in case anyone cares, here's a response from Icarus :

As far as the Crossfire 2: I am not sure exactly, but Crossfire2s started
shipping in late 2001, I believe. Some prototypes may have been made before
that. I am working on finding out the exact date for you

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=67844;d=1

well, is it ?

PS yes, I am humoring myself.

I really enjoyed this thread. Any new stories ?

ok, this one really gets me.

THIS IS NOT FUCKING EBAY !

When you post your ad - post a price, or post "MAKE OFFER".

When you post an ad with a price of $1000 , I expect to buy it for $1000, not get an email back saying "I am giving it three days, whoever offers me the most over $1000 will get it". BULLSHIT, use eBay to run auctions.

/rant over.