alan

Yes, I know. One just has to read this months Safety Check in Parachutist to confirm it. I was just trying to find a subtle way of getting her to think about it without being so blunt as to say her and her rigger had not really thought this through and they may have made a potentially fatal mistake. I guess I'm just better at being blunt. alan

I'm curious Ray, what definition of submerged would you use to warrant a permeability test? Have you ever discussed it with anyone at PD? I'm from a small DZ in WI so we don't see much pond swooping and intentional water jumps are done with gutter gear, so I have never been contronted with a wet PD reserve. I intend to call PD if I have face this situation as it seems to me that riggers ahve pretty much avoided addressing it. I can see more issues than porosity, as you have mentioned. Shrinking rates could cause trim and flight issues. Tapes are preshrunk aren't they? Exacta-chute fabric is not, right? Specra lines? One part of the canopy gets wet, the rest doesn't, meaning one part is affected and one isn't. Probably not a real issue since the effects on overall performance would in most cases be minor and may in fact never be discovered. The instruction in the manual may be heavily influenced by liability issues more than anything else and to discourage people from throwing them in the washer and dryer! alan

No, what I am assuming is that after going in the water the jumper opens the reserve to inspect it and dry it and does not wait for the repack cycle before wanting to use the rig again. If I get an open reserve before the repack cycle, I ask why it is open even if I am not required to, so I can make any appropriate remarks on the packing data card, i.e., repacked after use. I assume that someone would have to intentionally want to deceive me for me to not know the reserve had been submerged. If it was wet or damp when I got it, I would want to know why and the circumstances in order to determine if a permeability test would be warranted. alan

Yes, I had that in front of me when I posted. Also, I got that question right on my written exam. I interpreted it to pertain to the "how to" part of assembly and not determining compatibility. I may very well be wrong, but, and I emphasize but, The FAA and its' field reps have been known to be inconsistent in their interpretations of the regaulations they enforce so maybe I'm entitled as well. Do a little search of my posts here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=807049;#807049 and you'll see I pointed this out in a discussion between Hooknswoop (Derek) and rigging65 (Ryan). Proper assembly, not compatibilty. I am anxious to see what Derek finds out from PD. alan

Another FYI riggers and others. If you receive a system that uses the rubber bands on the freebag locking stows, it is illegal to pack it with a PD reserve, unless of course if a rubber band can be defined as a bungee stow. Just something to be aware of when determining equipment compatibilty for assembly or making a purchasing decision. Not a slam on PD or anyone else, just a little information that could easily be overlooked. alan

FYI Most riggers are aware of PD'd requirements for a permeability test after 25 jumps or 40 repacks. There are several other situations that require a permeability test as well. The first criteria listed in their manual is: "The canopy is completely submerged in water." The manual does not elaborate on exactly what this means. Does the canopy have to be in a deployed state? Does it mean the canopy has to be soaking wet? What if it is still in the container, but was submerged long enough to have to be aired and dried? I'm not picking on PD here. They set a high standard in quality, performance, and customer service. So, how many riggers out there send those PD chow jobs in for a permeability test? It is a bit confusing because on another page they say that: "If a canopy has been agitated or moved around much while wet, the afbric must be tested for permeability, before it is returned to service." While the first statement simply says submerged, I guess it could be argued that the latter implies it also has to have been agitated. Chuck, you're a rigger, PD factory rep, and a guy that gets wet on occassion, what is the official policy? alan

I guess the chances of having to cut away your main after you have collapsed the slider are reasonably slim, but things can and do happen. Have you given any thought to that loop you now have dangling near the back of your helmet and camera snagging one or the other in the rare event of a cut away after a canopy collision, for example? alan

I'm sure you didn't mean for this to sound as offensive or self-superior as it appears. A lot of the "idiots" you are referring to come here looking for this type of information: "Performance Designs and Big Air both recommend leaving a minimum of 18 inches slack line between the last rubber band and the connector links. Much shorter and you risk tearing your reserve container off. Significantly longer and you risk tearing off a main side flap." Good stuff.......they don't need the rest as a slap in the face, even with the little Hee! Hee! alan

I'm confused as to what your point is or what issue you have with my posts. We seem to be saying pretty much the same thing. I have no problem with the use of a hook knife, but with respect to a reserve mal, and the view point of a non- CRW jump, it would be a last resort. Your comments above seem to me to reflect that. I can't help but feel you have somehow gotten the impression that I have been critical of the use of knives by CReW Dogs and are intent on defending them. That is just not the case. My one and only contention was to question the conventional wisdom of using a reserve lineover/tension knot as one reason to carry a knife. I don't think CRW mals above 3000' are valid evidence for using them on a reserve at 1200'or most likely lower. They are proven as a tool for CRW. I think every JM/I should have one on them in the plane. Each plane should haveone easily accessable. I don't even see why everyone should not have one. I just question the wisdom of some one with little or no mal experience going after one at the first sign of trouble with a reserve. I think I've supported that with sound reasoning and evidence. Readers of the forum are free to give it thought and decide. I certainly did not post with the intention of a sidetracked and protracted debate on the merits of hook knives and I think the numbers speak for themselves. alan

here is what Tom had to say about his mal. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=813420;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_expanded;#813420 alan

When CF fails it shatters into sharp jagged edges that can cut and penetrate. Very light and strong. GF fails with cracks, seam failures, and crushing. A little heavier, but sems to absorb the shock load bettwer and disperse it more effectively. The katter seems less invasive to the humanhead. alan

Not quite the same as a lineover or tension knot on a reserve, considering there were 3 canopies up there including a mostly inflated reserve. In your example the reserve was deployed at 3000' and cleared at ~1000'. Most non-CRW jumps, the main isn't even deployed at 3000'. I know that there are exceptions to that and that is good. But the SIM has 1800' as decision altitude and reserve deployment by 1600'. With 100' to 300' for reserve opening that means my sport jumper will be down around 1200' or 1500' feet before he can even know he has a mal and will be down around 1000' before releasing the brakes, making an initial attempt to control/fix it. Your guy used 1000'+ to cut lines not on his reserve risers. Can you see how I might think my sport jumper might run out of altitude? And then that still leaves the issue of finding a place to land and flaring. One good recent trend I have been observing is jumpers tend to be opening a little higher. However, that is at least partially offset by the longer opening distances of the newer canopies. Consider the test done by Derek. A very experienced jumper with more than a few cutaways, an experienced rigger that packed the offending line, and he knew the mal was coming. He still was not able to identify the offending line in a reasonable time. I think CRW is a good time to have 2 or even up to 4 knives. I just don't think that the experiences in CRW necessarily translate into legitimate arguements for using a knife on a reserve mal on a non-CRW jump. I would not just rule them out, but my plan is more like Tom described. Kind of a last resort thing and only on a clearly identified steering line if altitude allowed. alan

Very true and no debate on that from me. But, it does not address the issue I was didcussing. What altitude do most of these CRW entanglements occura at? What altitude to most reserve deployments occur at? Is there a diffeence in the time involved to allow for cutting? Why do CRW dogs carry 2 or more knives? Is it because they know accessability and dropping one or more are real issues? Don't get me wrong, I think we should use knives, I'm just questioning the conventional wisdom with respect to reserve mals. alan

Thanks, I remeber reading it but not the details. I have experienced two lineovers and was able to clear them both. Once "popping" it off with the brake line and once using the riser. The time with the brake line, I was still pretty inexperienced and just went to my FJC traing for partial/low speed mal. Just guessed it was a lineover until the DZO said he saw it as well. I was pretty excited at the time and going off reflex more than thinking. The second one was much later in my career and involved a HP elliptical canopy. No way could I tell what line was the problem and "popping" the brake did not fix it, so I decided on one try with the whole riser. It worked. Very wild ride. FWIW, I knew something was wrong before I released the brakes, it was already not looking right and starting to spin during inflation. Releasing the brakes rally made it take off! Maybe should have tried to clear before releasing brakes? alan

Hi John! I still have a pie waiting for you, would you prefer it frozen or thawed? I do not "know" of any canopies that are trimmed below best glide, but lighter front riser pressure usually indicates a canopy that is closer to that. Stiletto and Cobalt come to mind. If any are trimmed below best glide, my guess is that they might be reserves or accuracy canopies and maybe even CReW canopies, although stability and pressurization would have to accounted for. Mfgr's don't routinely publish specific angles of incidence and aoa, although PPM gives some generalities. I would think that if one had the time, facilities, and canopies, they could be layed out and measured. I suspect that some mfgr's do this with competitors canopies to stay abreast of what the other guy is doing. Chris Martin, are you out there? Can/would you give us a little run down on canopy trim? alan

That reply is a little cavalier. Tom is a very experienced jumper, that should be taken into consideration. There is no discussion on how he may or may not have prepared himself to deal with such a situation. That should aslo be taken into consideration. Tom also was using a large and very docile canopy in comparison to the typical sport parachute and reserve, which should also be a consideration. I would certainly think that Tom's thoughts on the subject would be worthwhile. Lineovers seem to be a problem common in the BASE community just as with sport skydiving. A difference that I can see is that in BASE it is far more serious since a reserve canopy is far less common. It has to be dealt with. Do they incorporate cutting steering lines into their training? Also, do they have more incidents than we do with our reserves? Seems to be a more appropriate comparison. Does anyone have any firsthand knowledge of a skydiver actually experiencing a lineover on a reserve and successfully using a hook knife to clear it? Dave, this is not an attack on you. I believe these are legitimate concerns and should be considered by anyone trying to make an informed choice. alan

Before you get too caught up in the idea of using a hook knife to cut lines on your reserve in the event of a lineover mal, take a few minutes to really think about it. You are under your reserve, that means your are low. A serious lineover is a violent spinning mal and you are losing even more altitude rather quickly. You are already very excited. It takes time to find the knife. There is a good chance that due to the excitement and being tossed around by the mal, you will drop it. Suppose you manage to hang on to it. You are still losing altitude. Where are you going to land? Well, maybe that isn't bothering you at this point. You have to figure out exactly which line is the cause of your problem. Ever try doing that? Try doing it under stress, while being spun around, and yes, don't drop the knife. How much altitude do you have left now? Worried about landing yet? Best case, you manage to cut the correct line working from the inside out. By the way, a lineover is usually just that.......one line. And it is usually an outboard "D" line or a brakeline simply due to the nature of the mechanics involved in the mal. So much for cutting lines from the inside out. You also need to try and cut just one line at a time. Cutting several on your reserve will just make a bad situation unrecoverable. Ever cut Spectra line with a knife while the lines are under heavy tension? They cut like a hot knife through butter. My bet is that in all of the excitement, you will slice though the entire group on a given riser (or possibly even the riser), except the brakeline. If it is a brake line that is causing the problem and you go for it, you may just get away with it. A lineover can often be cleared by pulling the brake down on the offending side and "popping" it back up. This technique is often taught for clearing a similar problem on a main during the first jump course. It works, I've done it. Some lineovers can actually be landed. The spin can often be controlled by using the opposite brake or riser. PLF the lading. I've seen it done by a first jump student under a Manta. In summary, with a lineover on your reserve I believe your time (altitude) is more wisely spent clearing/controlling the problem without attempting an emergency procedure you almost certainly have never practiced. If you do, it may even be steerable to some degree, depending on how many cells in the line is over. You could actually have some luck in steering to an open area and doing a good PLF. Be wary of the advice given by some 100 jump wonder over the internet. You should also realize that a lineover is virtually always the result of a packing error, so a serious one on a reserve would be very rare.........a competent rigger just should not make that kind of mistake. If your DZ has an RD Trainer or can rig up something similar, you can practice your hook knife procedure. If you haven't seen one, an RD Trainer is a device that allows you to suspend from your rig and practice emergency procedures with substitute handles. It can be found in any recent Para Gear catalogue. Take the blade out of your hook knife and have someone spin you around like you experienced on your lineover. You can even connect an old canopy to your rig and throw it over what ever the trainer is suspended from and have some one put one line out of place like a lineover. Now you can actually practice under simulated conditions. Main canopy is out at 2500'. It takes 700' to open. You will lose about 45'per second with a line over or similar mal (normal rate of descent is about 15'/sec), so another 90' to 135' is gone before you realize it is not just a bad/off heading opening (most people burn another 300' to 400' trying to clear it before cutting the main away). The reserve takes about 250' to 300' to open (maybe less than 100' if you have the new Skyhook RSL system by RWS). Releasing the brakes takes another 90' to 135'. That also causes the the mal, now on the reserve, to spin faster and descend at about 60' per sec. You pump the brakes once or twice before deciding to go to the knife, that uses another 180' to 270'. Getting the knife out may take another 180' to 270'. Finding the right line to cut and making sure will take about 240' to 300', assuming you do it calmly and have practiced. About another 60' and hopefully you have it cut and got the right one and only the right one. Do the math. Time yourself on the trainer and remember, you won't be as stressed and you have premade the decisions, so you should be faster on the trainer than in real life. You should very quickly see that it is a good idea to practice this if you incorporate it as an option in your plans. You should also realize why many people are choosing to open a little higher with todays newer canopies. 500' to 800' openings are very common. Check the BASE forums for real info on lineovers. They use a release system for the brakes because they are the most common cuase of a lineover and it is much quicker and less damaging than a knife. Of course there are some very pratical reasons why that technology hasn't been adopted into our reserves, but it should give you some insight into the problem. Also, a lot of old time jumpers will tell you use the knife on your reserve.........becuase that is what they were told. A surprising number of jumpers will just accept what the old guys say and pass it along as fact, without taking the time to really think it through for themselves. I'm not advocating ignoring the old guys, they really are the best source of information, but do what you are doing. Get information, think it through, really think it through, and do what is best for you. Things change. That is what the old guys will tell you. They are right. alan

Thanks, I'd like to hear mor from others, especially skydiving incidents. Based on the limited information prsented here ar this point, I'm not getting the idea that a hook knife for a solution to a reserve malfuction is not well documnted in the field, despite all of the advice given to the contray. alan

We put tail out on the strut. IS center in the crotch. OS center on the step and point in the door. I think we have launced every formation in the 99 dive pool. No cut exits. Grip, foot and hand placement need to be well engineered. It is obvious, but presentation to the relative wind is the big key to success as well as timing. Each formation requires adjusments to all of these ares. Typically the tail is off just slightly first and low. This seems to create an Otter type exit. We competed in the NSL and did very well, with our exits having more success than the teams training out of Otters. Many were very surprised at our success. alan

If you had been around these forum for any lentgh of time, you would certainly realize how far off base your assesment of billvon is. He is one of the most knowledgeable and experienced posters on these forums. He simply provided unbieased and insightful observstions that can be supported. He does use a Cypres. alan

Just to be clear, did he actually cut the line or use the release that is used on some BASE rigs? Thanks alan

Well, you see, the thing is, that by tagging your reply and the additional comments to my post, it might leave the impression that I was saying/implying that going to rear risers can cause you to speed up. alan

Then why the reply to my post with the addition of these comments? Is there anything at all in the exchange below that even remotely suggests that I was addressing the issue of adding a riser to speed your canopy up? Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Once I reach my best glide (Which BTW is what a canopy is lined at) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All manufacturers do not trim all canopies the same and mfgr's trim some models differently. Typically, most canopies are trimmed slightly nose down from best glide. They do this for a variety of reasons, including but not limited to, attaining desired opening characteristics, higher pressurization, and stability. Some canopies are trimmed closer to best glide than others. alan

My post did not take issue with that. It simply corrected this statement. "Once I reach my best glide (Which BTW is what a canopy is lined at)" alan

Was/is there any discussion on whether or not having a hook knife as part of gear selection should have played a role. It sure would be great to get firsthand opinions from Eric. I often hear advice given that among other reasons to carry a hook knife is in case of a reserve mal (ie, most often lineover or tension knot) you can cut the offending line/s. Does anyone here have any actual experience with cutting lines on a malfunctioned reserve? Urban legend type of advice based on some untried/unproven theory? Does anyone actually practice finding and handling the knife on an RD trainer? Are you comfortable using an emergency procedure, under stress, that you have never practiced? Is it better to deal with it and keep flying (as Eric did successfully), or start destroying your last airfoil? I know this could be discussed over in S&T, but I think it is also related to G&R. alan