apoil

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I said..."So, you are turning points?"

"No" they said...."It's different"

I told them the next thing they know they will have dive pools, and be racing against the clock just like 4 way guys...

They all laughed at me.

Man its funny to see a "Dive Pool" now.

I've heard numerous stories like this from back in the day. Most of them also involve Orly, who was perhaps little to vocal about what freefly was and would be back in the day.

Anyhow, while it is absolutely essential to have compulsory moves, or dive pools in order to have competition, I do feel that in a sense, competition kills off creativity in the sport.

When RW began, it was new and fresh and rife with possibilities. Now that sequential 4/8/16 way has pretty much become the standard for RW competition, it has reduced those possibilities to a finite series of moves that need to be worked on to the point where you are shaving seconds off of the same repeated maneuvers. Nothing wrong with that - it requires great discipline and skill, but when it comes down to new folks saying, "what can we do on our bellies for this dive", the options to an extent have become a little more limited.

The same thing is taking place in freefly. And competition to a degree reduces the "free" aspect of "freeflying". This isn't necessarily bad, and ultimately, by combining all possible flight modes we have a much more diverse pool of "points" we can turn on a highly skilled recreational dive that have yet to be explored. Also, freefly competition is not finished evolving. It is currently categorized as "artistic" which leaves some room for expression in routines, but there are plenty of vertical competitions that can be judged absolutely, as specific points performed in specific time.

Pylon Racing and 4way speed are some very good competitions that can be judged absolutely rather than subjectively. They may never get entered into the IPC but as vertical skill improves, it is likely that we will see competitive events that involve larger teams.

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>None die from it being too heavily loaded either.
>It's just a contributing factor.

While literally true, you could say the same about drunk drivers. Drunk driving doesn't kill people, rear ending other cars at 50mph does. However, being drunk makes it a lot more likely that you'll rear end cars at 50mph.

If you are going to compare it to driving, wingloading is directly comprable to a high power to weight ratio. A fast car.

Bringing in impairing conditions bleeds the issue over into something much more controversial. But let's run with it. While Statistics certainly do bear out that driving drunk does result in more accidents, it's misapplication of statistics to say that being drunk will result that I myself am more likely to rear end a car at 50 mph. Because it's not necessarily the case.

Just as it's not the case that jumper x under a 2.0 wingloading is more likely to break his leg or kill himself. He's just more at risk if he makes a makes a mistake and everyone knows that.

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None die from it being too heavily loaded either.
It's just a contributing factor.
Sorry Cliff have to disagree on this one....But you knew I would right?

Some of the people that died would most likley not have died if they made the same mistake that the did with a Raven II main.

Try harder.. you just agreed with me.

The MISTAKE is what killed them. The wingloading was just a contributing factor. Had they not made the mistake, they wouldn't have died, under either canopy.

I tell everyone that the higher wingloading puts them more at risk and will be far less forgiving of minor errors and completely unforgiving of major ones.

But if you are writing the incident report that goes to the public are you going to put: "cause of death: wingloading" or "cause of death: low turn" ???

I'm not talking about what you put in your analysis. I'm talking about cause of death.

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Yes the #1 cause of accidents (which by the way I don't believe in accidents..All accidents are nothing more than errors in judgment) is someone screwing up.

There you go agreeing with me again.. This is becoming a problem.

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well you are only hurting yourself for not replacing them after 500 jumps. I know a JM who had over 500 (don't know the exact number) on his set of batteries, chased a student low, pulled for her then pulled for himself, I was at 1500ft and saw him fall way past me before deploying his main. (he said he was in the saddle at 600 feet) He cypres did not fire. This was not a malfunction of the cypres, his batteries were really that low.

I had a battery said go dead on me before the two years were up. there were well over 500 jumps on it. I'm over 500 jumps on my current battery, therefore I check the voltage every time I turn it on. If it powers up with 6.4 or 6.3 volts it will most likely work even with 500+ jumps on it.

As an aside, that JM violated procedure by not having an open container by 2000 ft as stated in the BSRs. Chasing a student that low actually puts them in greater danger. They have a better chance of survival with the AAD they are required to wear and the instructor in their airspace at that time is a serious hazard. At 2000 feet, saving yourself is a priority. If you are EVER conscious and need your cypres, you should be thankful you are alive and re-evaluate your participation in the sport.

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Not really, you know what date the batteries went in there from the reserve card, just look at the owners log book from that date to see how many jumps they've made. But who is going to check all this?

I said it can't be proven.

The log book could be incorrect.
Someone else could have jumped the rig.
The logged jumps could be on a different rig.

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The atheists have completely hijacked this thread.

The CHRISTIANS hijacked this forum, which is supposed to be about skydiving, by sneaking in a subject that really belongs in Talk Back, under the flimsy guise of setting up a ministry tent at a boogie. Any thread to the relationship of this topic to skydiving got lost quite early on.

This thread should be locked or moved.

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An atheist is someone who "denies" the existance of God. Big difference.
Thanks,

Which is why it's still a term invented with the concept of God in mind.
Atheism is literally defined in terms of theism. So it is unacceptable.

Fortunately, I lived in another country for a while that actually practiced religious tolerance, instead of giving it lip service under a predominantly judeo-christian umbrella.

There you they'd accept you as a "free-thinker" and that would really be the end of it. Because religion is a private matter. Morality is public and if you get it from religion that's fine with me, but keep the religion part private.

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Another thing i want to know is why so many of you seem to feel SO threatend by this?????
it makes no sence to me, i mean if i dont like what i hear on the radio i change the channel....

Many of us go to the dropzone as a way of "changing the channel"

It's not so much that we are threatened. I am not threatened by christian ministries. However, don't try to convince yourself that it is being set up to be "there for the people that want it"

The people that want it, know where to find it.
It's being set up as an outreach, for the people that they think, might want it, and not realize it, or might need it and not know it. That is intrinsically bothersome to me, because it's based on the core assumption that theirs is the only belief system that will lead to the only desireable outcome of life, ie "salvation". The majority of the world population does not share this viewpoint.

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if you dont feel like listening to this than keep walking no prob....
it's just so funny to me that people feel the need to BAN something that may bennifit someone else just because they dont believe the same.....

It's not being BANNED. Do you think that every religious spiritual voice has an intrinsic right to express itself at a skydiving event? It's not a public forum, it's skydiving. Let's keep what we do related to skydiving.

The landscape surrounding every dropzone is LITTERED with churches. They have every right to do what they do. People know where to find jesus if they want him. He doesn't have to be brought anywhere.

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man, LIVE AND LET LIVE.......

I wonder what the reaction would be if the nation of islam set up shop on a dropzone, "just in case we needed them".

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Dust devils need hot (90 degrees fahrenheit), desert soil and a bit of horizontal wind to form. Thermal lifting is not enough to form a dust devil. They need a bit or horizontal wind to start them spinning. Once they start spinning they are nasty. The worst dust devils are the ones that start on hard pan, because you cannot see them.

Thermal lifting can create feeder drafts from below that start it spinning.

They can occur in Florida as well, just not quite with the same regularity, and they wont be visible if there's no dust/debris on the ground.

But the ones in the South west are fearsome to behold, easily rising up a thousand feet or more.

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On the other hand . . . very few jumpers die each year from having a canopy too lightly loaded.

None die from it being too heavily loaded either.
It's just a contributing factor.

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FAR part 105 now says that an AAD, if installed, must be, maintained according to the manufacturer's specs. Airtec says every 2 years/500 jumps for the battery replacement, making it law.

Fortunately, there's no way to prove the number of jumps on a particular battery set, so the 500 jumps part, while law, is completely unenforceable.

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The two people that I know who have cut-in backpads for freeflying (one Mirage and one Javelin) are not happy with them. With the Mirage at least, there is a pivot point at the chest rings and because of that when you sitfly the rig comes off of your back by about 6-10 inches.

If you don't mind this happening go for the cut-ins.

The Javelin is designed completely differently from the mirage.
The Mirage G4 does it with inner elastic straps. With Javelin it is actually part of the rig and this will not happen.

The Mirage isn't actually cut-in at all.

As to the risk of snags, it is pure hypothesis. To act like it's a real danger is quite silly at this point. Cut-in Laterals have been available on the Javelins for 3 or 4 years. Thousands of test jumps and tens of thousands of sport jumps have been made with them, and there has never been a single snag. Naturally, I can't say it's impossible, but it's not a realistic risk.

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At our loft, a 9 cell reline is $268, and a 7 cell reline is $248 -- Icarus or PD. We do mail order, and we're an Icarus factory service center.

Do you charge significantly less for an HMA reline?
The ground zero canopies (and the Nitro and Blade from germany) have no cascades and thus involve considerably less labor to do a reline.
No bartacking, no fingertrapping, just swap out each line individually.

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A side note on HMA. It is UV sensitive. I have heard that 4 hours of direct sunlight can weaken the lines up to 60 percent. So, I keep mine out of the sun. But, I've always packed indoors or in the shade anyway...

Please post things that you are sure of, and not what you have simply heard.
"up to 60%" is one of those marketing phrases that mean nothing. So this is just another misleading statistic, that may not even be appropriate to the HMA lines that are being used on parachutes.

HMA lines are suitable for parachute use. Extensive exposure to sunlight is bad for all of our gear. Pack quickly and in the shade whenever possible. Check your lines for wear.

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Did you pick up some swedish when were here the last time???

I did....
she was beautiful

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Killer thread.

I was just thinking of ways to exercise leg flying when HD. I have GOT to slow down. My HD is stable, but everyone else on the jump has to haul-a#% to keep up. Im thinkin flying more with my legs could really help slow me down. Keep in mind, I dont fly daffy well, and Im sure thats a huge part of what Im trying to do with legs during HD. Thanks!

As with most things freefly, if you can't do it now, practice it and learn.

You don't need a coach to practice going slow.
Just grab a buddy who can also hold a headdown.
Drill on going slower. Take turns doing a hand dock, followed by slowing down and taking a foot dock (a quick slap will do).

Have a slow fall contest (but do it while slowing down TOGETHER to prevent a dangerous situation where you lose sight of each other).

FORCE yourself to slow down with only your legs. It's not easy.

Hint - you don't have to go full on daffy right away if you can't fly it stable. Take your widest wide leg stance, and while flying in front of your buddy, try for just a little bit of front/back in your leg position. Even a little will make a big difference. Each time, try a little more. Try it with the other leg forward.

Every chance you get, try to do leg freeing excercises (kicking, "running in place" while head down) and leg strengthening excercises - slowing down by using the legs as much as possible. Only use your arms to slow down if you are in a big formation and really need it, then as soon as you can, get them back down and relaxed.

Don't get too frustrated, everyone who now makes it look so easy has been where you are. Try to avoid saying "I can't do that". It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Try instead to say "That's something I need to work on".

It's a journey not a destination. Keep jumping, keep working on the areas where you need work, but enjoy each jump and you will improve.

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Somehow, I fail to see where I'd be in "competition" . I simply want a ministry there IF someone desires it. Although I pastor a church (theROCKchurch) in Tulsa, i'm not there to "preach" to anyone. Hope to see you at the boogies.

Blue Skies
Steve

Steve, how would you feel if the Church of Satan set up an equivalent booth? A little threatened perhaps? Offended?

Keep your religion to yourself.

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I'm interested in starting a ministry to skydivers at boogies similar to what Tribe of Judah does at Biker Rallies. I know there is a Christian Skydivers Association, but I'm not looking for a club for Christian skydivers, rather I desire to have a minsitry of "presence" at Boogies. A real, non-judgmental, "where there if you ever need us" type of ministry. In other words a tent with free literature and free bibles, an ear to listen and maybe a short 2-30 minute service on Sundays. Anybody think this is a bad idea or a good idea?
Blue ones ~ Steve

As far as I'm concerned, you would not be welcome.
The arrogance and centricity of christians never ceases to amaze me.

There is no shortage of churches in the vicinity of most dropzones. Plenty of christian support is "there if we need you". Those who need it, know where to look for it. But to put yourself IN the boogie environment crosses the line as far as I'm concerned. Be honest, you are not there for the converted - you are seeking to reel in those you consider lost or in need of your help. Many of us have chosen this lifestyle in active rejection of what you are offering, and would find your presence unwelcome.

Be christian if you want, but keep it to yourself, please.

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So, what this tells you, is that wingloading is a very basic method for telling you something about speed in canopies. Kind of like comparing a 4-cylinder, 6-cylinder, 8-cylinder, and 12-cylinder automobile. It'll let you know something about it, but only in one area, and not all that much.

Actually, wingloading is more analogous to total displacement in an engine.

The number of cylinders is more like the shape of the canopy, 7cell/9cell/square/elliptical, etc.

Displacement relates fairly directly to horsepower, but not entirely, and horesepower doesn't completely answer the question of 'how fast will I go'. Consider a 5litre V8 in an SUV full of people versus the same engine in a Corvette.

Obviously the analogy breaks down because there are more different options for an automobile configuration.

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Do you really want to land down-wind, unconscience, under a 113?

my feeling is that if that's the case, you have bigger problems.

you wouldn't be significantly better off under a 143 in that circumstance. you have to take different precautions to prevent being in that situation.

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then i guess the reason for the difference in recovery arc is the wing loading of the canopy.
1.52 on impulse 135 : 1.71 on stilleto 120

and i rarely do 180 turns on impulse 135, so i'm not used to higher speeds at 180 turns.

I'm still a little concerned that you considered a 180 front riser turn that low to the ground to be a conservative move on a smaller canopy that you'd never jumped before.

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So if you are flying horizontally in Hybrid, do you really have to say that you were belly flying, or is there another term that can be used!?

Utilizing your "abdominal control surface"

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yep, your right dude (still shaking my head). i vote we scrap the whole exit order thing altogether. would likely save alot of confusion. instead we'll just pile up in the plane (whatever order) and give adequate seperation between groups, say 20 to 30 seconds. this way drift (which is adressed by proper exit order) will be irrelevant.

Now I'm the one shaking my head.
This wasn't a discussion about exit order. But someone brought up exit order as if that were THE ONLY THING that would ensure proper separation between groups. We all know it isn't. Even with "proper" exit order the delay between groups should be longer if the winds are higher, and if someone bombs out with a 2 second delay there will be trouble.

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exit ORDER has nothing to do with it.

i would reply but instead i'm gonna just shake my head at this one. your profile says you have 1700+ jumps. at that experience level, surely you have more sense than to believe that statement you made.

I've got even yet still more jumps than that now.

Stop shaking your head and start thinking because I explained myself very clearly.

Exit order does not ensure separation.

Only separation ensures separation.

How much sepearation is appropriate determines the exit order. Those of you that insist that there is only one safe exit order are not thinking about all situations. It is a valid rule of thumb, but even if you follow it you still have to give the appropriate time between groups and that depends on the ground speed, and winds aloft.

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I'm interesting in getting my AD license (if still possible/ applicable). Is there anybody planning on being at the swoop festival who could administer the official test for me?

I object to the continual reference to it as a "license"
Because it is not universalized or recognized as a license outside of a very limited group of people.

What exactly is it a license to do? To jump with the ball? Well you are jumping with the ball when you take the test. To ballmaster? The A is not a sufficient skill level to ballmaster for anyone else.

Originally it was the qualifier for the space games.

Now it is a very good skill test.
A rating, sure, that's fine, but a license? don't make me laugh.