apoil

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as long as proper exit order is followed no one's open canopy should pose a threat to anyone exiting with another group.

exit ORDER has nothing to do with it.

Proper exit SEPARATION is what you mean.

Exit ORDERS only help to ensure SEPARATION when using the same delay between groups.

Fundamentally I agree with you.

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This site disappointed me greatly. I was told about it last weekend after I graduated. I was looking over the furoms and came across pornography without any warning at all. my 8 year old son and 12 year old daughter were reading the site with me too. I won't bee back. This is against the law. You need disclamers and warnings about pornagraphy.

don't feed the trolls.

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Is the bald eagle still protected? I thought it was off the endangered species act's watch list... OF course, I could be comPLETEly wrong.

highly protected.

Just because they aren't about to die out doesn't mean you can go killing them with your automatic weapons.

The fines for killing them are enormous. like $250,000.

It's still a very rare privilege to even see one in the wild.

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Are you saying that you have 50 jumps total and downsized 100 sqft?

Don't sensationalize.

Going from a 270 ft student canopy to a reasonably sized 169 at 177lbs after 50 jumps is not really "downsizing 100 sq ft"

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So if your reserve was blue, you would honestly search out a rigger that liked that color and was not irritated by it? I've known many riggers; not one of them would take less care on a rig that "irritated" them. Most riggers take their responsibilities far more seriously than that; if such things concern you about your rigger I'd strongly suggest finding a new one.

I'm getting real sick of hearing this argument with respect to the reflex.
It's always, if your rigger doesn't like it maybe you should find a new rigger.

Well sometimes you CANT find a new rigger.
How many bad reserve pack jobs do you have to go through before you find a rigger that packs the thing properly? How long is your rig going to be "in the shop" while you sit on the ground because you are evaluating yet another rigger to find out if he's one of the magical few that can pack your rig properly?

Here's the real issue.
You are making a purchasing decision:

Rig A - market leader, everyone knows it, parts are readily available, all riggers are familiar with it and have packed many.

Rig B - minimal market penetration, original company went out of business, many riggers are prejudiced against it, some hate it and refuse to pack it, others do so grudgingly, some are quite happy with it, yet even those never seem to get it packed so that the pop top stays closed.

Which one will you buy?

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I am dealing with a guy from Nigeria too who would like to buy my gear. So I am guessing this is all too good to be true. Or I should require a wire transfer?

Nigeria = Scam.

If it seems too good to be true it's because it is.

They write you the check, it clears, you send them the extra money.
Then the check bounces.
This can happen with international transactions.

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Edit: And it did NOT increase the pull force on the pin.

Any time you cinch it down it most certainly does increase the pull force.
Whether the amount is acceptable or not is open to interpretation, but the fact that it does is not.

Mine would not stay closed no matter who packed it.
That's not a good selling point.

Do you spill your riggers beer while he's packing you? Do you hit on his girlfriend? Insult him? No because it irritates him. Well for many riggers handing them a reflex in the first place accomplishes that. It's your decision.

N/A

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I haven't had any major problems with my reflex. But my next container will be something else. No specific reasons. The only issue i've had was a poorly packed reserve pilot chute that kept coming loose for one repack cycle. But I'm getting tired of jumping a rig that some riggers refuse to pack and too many people disagree on.

That sounds like a major problem to me.

Riggers don't like to pack it.
The manufacturer claims that most riggers "don't know how to pack it" hence the pop top constantly loosening and creating dangerous snag points as well as increased reserve pin forces when it is tightened down.

Just logged in to see tons of old threads bumped up because they had new posts.

All of them are newbie flyboyshel adding a one liner
going, "great!" "nice thread" "good information" or something.

Tips for online communication:
1) Don't post unless you really have something worth contributing.
2) if your comment is just a "yeah" or "me too" (on USENET this is often done as a joke with me too because of all the aol'ers who came on line and did just that back in the day), then just save it.
3) if your post is shorter than your sig, then DEFINITELY save it.
4) start off in a new forum with your "eyes open and mouth closed" - learn what the local culture is before jumping right in and trying to get noticed.

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I was doing 270s on the Stiletto and coming out of them I could no longer hold down the riser. Hence the etc. Yes I realize I probably did this a little premature now, but I'm careful about it as I'm not going out and cranking 180s and have no intention too until everything is dialed in.

I jumped several canopies in that wingloading range and liked the Velocity the best.

Ok, I misunderstood you then. When you talked about just getting into double fronts you weren't talking about what you'd done on the stiletto before, but what you are doing on the velocity now.

In that case you are not progressing insanely at all and as long as you respect what you are flying, and proceed sensibly, you should be fine.

Me, like I said, I've got nearly 1000 jumps on an elliptical at 1.8 and I'm planning to go to a smaller elliptical for another 1000 jumps or so before going crossbraced. But that's more about preferences.

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When to start hooking in though? I mean eventually that's what I'm aiming for. I've just started to mess with double fronts and carving during my double front swoop. Nothing too dangerous.

My current progression plan is comfortable with double fronts (and perfected). Then 90s etc.

I did the same progression with the Stiletto.

It almost sounds as if you are trolling.
I mean, if you haven't been doing 270's on your stiletto at 1.8 then you certainly aren't flying it close to its full potential.
So why did you downsize to a crossbraced? Because you think it's the coolest thing? crossbraced is specifically designed for highly experienced pilots with lots of jumps under a loaded elliptical. It doesn't sound to me like that's who you are.

Maybe I'm more conservative, but I didn't start jumping an elliptical (1.8) until close to 800 jumps, and I've got nearly 1000 on that and I'm STILL learning it. Now not everyone progresses at the same rate as me, but are you absolutely sure you are such a natural at canopy piloting that you can afford to put yourself at the high end of the performance spectrum so quickly? Even if you are good enough at this stage that people think you "probably wont die" it doesn't mean you are getting the most out of what you are flying.

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Pardon the pun but you've hit the nail on the head.."many, many others..." a lot of people at my DZ did the same but I'm looking to do something Different...I've been thinking about jumping a roundy or an intentional cut-away..

milney

Not to be too much of a safety weeny, but I just had a buddy break his leg on a pretty festive 100th jump (well technically on the landing afterwards). There's no direct correlation between anything he did, but keep in mind that the more new stuff you do on a jump and the more special and exciting it is, the more distracted you may be. It's just one possible link in the chain that can be broken simply by being aware of it.

So, have all kinds of fun on your 100th jump, but it's not a good time to say, jump a canopy you've never tried before, or try to get a bigger swoop on the one you are currently flying.

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For this to happen, the following conditions have to exist.
1. Jumper head-down, maybe slightly on their back.
2. Main not deployed.
3. Reserve fire. (CYPRES fire or D-ring snag)
(4.) For it to really catch, he may have to tip to one side.

So, yeah, I think it's pretty unlikely, but it's certainly possible. I'd love to be wrong.

Again, I don't think it makes sense to make purchasing decisions about the gear you will jump every day, probably for a thousand jumps without incident, based on this highly unlikely combination of events.

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Well, in the US it is accepted that you should have an AD number, which means that you should have been appraised by a 'ball master' or some other unofficial type licensing thing.

Not to really stir this up, but AD numbers are only issued by one "school".
It is the only recognized "rating" of this sort, but it shouldn't necessarily be considered the only game in town. At other DZ's if you have that skill level and can demonstrate it, it's about the same deal.

Additionally the skill level required to get it, isn't quite the skill level required to be a ball master. Ie someone who can reliably catch the ball nearly all the time at a prearranged altitude.

Ideally the ball should always be jumped with a backup, and always over uninhabited areas.

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The guy with 1000 freeflights(tm) should have known better, but how would a SA guy get an AD "license", since there are no examiners in SA?

Exactly.
And if you read the fine print, it's only a "license" to use Olav's spaceball™ in Olav's spacegames™.

Other skyball activity is not sanctioned by that school. The AD "A" should not be considered a "license to jump skyballs"

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This is wrong!

..snip..

The 1 or 2 versions depends on the rig you are jumping. (E.g. a pop-top needs a 2 pin version).

Nothing like following up a correction with more misinformation.

A two pin pop top requires a two pin version.

Reflexes and Tear Drops have one pin poptops.

Javelin, Wings, Dolphin and a few others have one pin semi-poptops.

To my knowledge ONLY the racer has a two pin poptop.

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Dirt dart (non-altitude aware freeflyer) goes low and has a CYPRES fire wearing his Odyssey. Reserve goes which way? Past his feet. That means the risers are next to or around the main container.

If the possibility of a CYPRES fire is affecting your choice of gear, you might want to do us all a favor and get out of the sport.

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You think there's a chance a riser could snag in that corner?

Not much. Have you actually looked at one? There's really nowhere for anything to snag.

You guys are funny.

You talk about the ideal progression, but you started freeflying right off student status.

You talk about the rw guys "always getting left behind" and then say you can only speak for the dz you jump at.

Consider this: freeflying is ultimately controlled flight in any direction.
RW helps you master the use of your "abdominal control surface".

All good freefly teams are incorporating belly flying into their routines.

can you do the 3D dive? It's worth trying.
More and more our freefly skydives include a belly point or two.

Try this: Head down no contact exit, build a 4 way head down round, transition to a sit campfire, transition to belly, build a round, then with the grips simultaneously punch into a stand.

Or a dive recently cooked up by Mike Wittenburg at zhills:
the "two by four"

Two points head down
Two points sitting
Two points belly
Two points tracking

Advanced Head down flying often looks a lot like RW.
We've taken a fair number of 4way randoms and built them on our heads. Why? Because we can.

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I couldn't agree more.
If someone with a bunch of jumps is saying do rw first, it is probably because that's the way they started out. but it is not necessarily right.
i am one of the 200 jump people, but one that was fortunate enough to be going out with one of the best freeflyers over here.
freefall safety primarily involves not colliding with anyone and tracking away safely. well tracking is part of ff, and most freeflyers i've seen are much better trackers than flat-flyers.

Not sure who you are agreeing with because the consensus here seemed to be that doing RW is important to freefly, and that each is a big help to the other especially early on in your training.

Freefly tracking dives are incredibly awesome, but they are not strictly about tracking for separation. In fact they are about exactly the opposite - tracking for proximity, ie flying relative in a tracking mode. When good RW people come on a tracking dive, they say "that isn't tracking". Because in their normal track they will be far faster and flatter than the leader unless the leader is maxed out. And maxing out is not the way to lead a tracking dive. You need to allow for people to speed up if they are falling behind. RW people rarely experiment with slowing down forward motion of a track, or adjusting it's fall rate. They tune their track to be increasintly flatter and faster because thats the skill they need for bigger and bigger formations.

What RW teaches you is about approaching formations, docking, staying out of burbles, etc. And it does it at lower speeds where you can actually learn and accomplish something. Controlled docking in freeflying is considered "advanced" to say the least.

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i have seen videos of really experienced rw people that were way more dangerous on their first ff jumps than any newbie learning ff.

They are only dangerous to those who aren't skilled enough to stay with them and teach them.

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apart from that, when you're a fflyer stability is not an issue. you learn to recover much faster, and have a lot more space awareness.

stability is not an issue to a freeflyer?
How long before you stopped corking? backsliding? continuing to drive forward after approaching a large headdown formation? If you haven't yet, then believe me you will. All of these are different forms of instablity and they are an issue.

Yes, freeflying gives you awareness of more spatial dimensions, but only after you get some experience. Everytime you learn something new in skydiving your awareness gets reduced to what is directly in front of you. Can you check the spot during a head down dive? Eventually you might be able to as you get used to it and begin to take in more. That's the benefit of RW, you get to work on those skills in a slower falling mode, and only deal with one dimension primarily that you can master before moving on to the virtical ones.

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no need to be snipity, i'm making them as fast as i can. demo fleet is in que for production in about 2 weeks.

Snippiness was actually merited, because under the guise of being helpful, you merely took an opportunity to do more marketing.

Not that theres anything wrong with that at all.. Gotta promote your product line, even if it is yet to hit the market, but yes, a response pointing out that it was only of minimal help was merited.

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HMA is currently only in production on the Xaos line of canopies I believe.

The entire ground zero line uses HMA. At least the Nitron, HP non crossbraced elliptical does.

The Nitro and Blade in germany use HMA.

In fact it was the import of the Nitro as the Nitron that brought HMA with it.

They are an outstanding line material. I wouldn't jump a canopy without it.
I've seen them worn. They wear visibly. Not like spectra, but if you keep track of jumps and are prepared to change them they aren't likely to suddenly snap on you. But that means not throwing your canopy to the packers and walking away for 400 straight jumps. You have to actually look at your gear to see what's going on with it.

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And not starting anything, but did you take the [AFF] course twice? If so was it due to not being current in flat? I know you can skydive, but did flat currency play a part?

I only ask this due to it if it was a case of flat currency it could be used to state that if you want to do AFF later, it might be wise to do more flat jumps now.

Flat currency played a part, but like most things skydiving it's largely mental.
Getting current enough to pass the course the second time was more a matter of DECIDING to, than actually doing it. I just started doing flat jumps and flying like an AFF I on those jumps.

I took the course the first time, more out of curiosity, and to test myself. Not passing it got me fired up enough to really make sure I had the skills the second time around. And that's not to say that my motivations for becoming an instructor were misguided. What also gelled for me between courses was exactly why I was bothering in the first place.

As to when to do the flat jumps, I don't really think it matters, but if you expect to do AFF, they should be done. In a lot of ways, though, AFF is like freeflying on your belly. The sudden changes in fall rate and overall unpredictability is not something you find in typical sequential RW. That said, Pip says the 4way competitors generally have the least trouble in the course, while freeflyers and videographers struggle the most. But what does he know? :)

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Hey Cliff.....Its called a joke. A way to impart humor into a conversation.

It didn't really come across that way, just as it didnt in the other forum where you posted the same thing.

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That's a prejudice a lot of hardcore RW people have about VRW.

How about the reverse where FF guys are saying that RW was boring???

Well, since you mention it:
That's a prejudice that a lot of FF guys have about RW.

This is the Freefly forum. If a freeflyer went into the Relative Work forum and posted that RW is boring, that would be considered Trolling, whether it was intended to be humorous or not.


I have far more respect for Freefliers who have developed some mastery of belly flying.

Even among freefliers there are those who never even bothered to master their head up flying beyond getting it basically right and going on to head down flying exclusively.

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I bet that you could take me on a VRW jump that I would be way over my head....But I also bet I could put you in a flat jump that would leave you in the dust....Just a different specialty.

Only if it's hardcore 4way with lots of verticals.

Excluding the staff and organizers, and the competitive teams (the good ones), I'm actually one of the BETTER belly flyers at Zhills.

But that has nothing to do with what we're discussing.
I don't disparage RW.

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I am impressed with GOOD FF....I however I think people are getting into it with out enough basic skydiving skills.
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no argument there. And the people who do that, will suffer because their training is imbalanced.


All I say is that there's nothing wrong with learning SOME freeflying while mastering RW.
It's almost as if the RW folks are holding on by a thread insisting that RW be mastered before people do ANY Freeflying at all because they are afraid the might lose too many new jumpers to Freeflying.

I take a more inclusive approach. Everything should be learned and explored and RW is very important, especially early on, but that doesn't mean DONT freefly, it just means pursue it sensibly and take the time to build a foundation.

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On Usenet postings a signature will always start after a "--"

That only became common on usenet, after people drilled it home for eons...

And it's technically "-- ", dash-dash-space.

technically, it's "dash dash newline"
and it's the usenet posting software that does it, not the people who had it "drilled home"

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Hi,
I am really interested in possibly getting a Lotus, probably 136. There was one for sale with about 300 jumps or so and the guy was asking $1250. Anyone have any thoughts on what would be reasonable to pay for said canopy?

that's a good price.

Airlocks are expensive to make. I believe the Lotus lists for well over $1800 new.