apoil

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If i am right so does Rook Nelson

Not according to the web site.

Rook could certainly do it, but he's I don't expect that he will.
He doesn't have to prove that he's at that skill level, doesn't have to jump through Olav's hoops. He's got a handful of gold medals, and pretty much universal recognition as one of the best body fliers alive today.

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I think CRW is to unique in itself to make a good comparison. RW is a lot the opposite of freeflying. Learning curves for example.

Your points regarding the lack of need for licenses in other disciplines are well thought out.

I'd like point out though, that in Australia, the Star Crest is taken as something of an RW license. You can't be on an 8 way or larger until you have your starcrest because it demonstrates your ability to dock on an 8 way without taking it out. Star Crest loads are organized all the time for those that are ready for it.

I was almost invited on a night formation load, but I didn't have my night star crest and was ineligible.

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But what these anti-aad people are saying is that they will NEVER EVER make a mistake, that they will NEVER have us for an aad.

No they aren't. But what they are saying is that they are willing to accept death as a consequence of making such a mistake.

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Because your canopy controll will have a big progresion in the first 50-80 jumps. I wouldnt recommend any gear WL over 0.9 or 1.1 with a jump number ~10-15. After 50-80 jumps you may handle a canopy with WL 1.1-1.3. It flies better, its a bigger fun to fly those. Just count: what is cheaper: rent for 50-80 jump or buy now and sell at least the main after 100 jumps?

And I have quite the opposite opinion.

Get gear as soon as possible after AFF. Gear that fits comfortably and gear that is safe enough to freefly in so that you can at least dabble in that while you get the basics down. It's hard to learn on rental and student gear. Unless your dropzone has an excellent demo/rental program (most don't) you will suffer constantly under that gear, and it will hinder learning.

You don't need to progress to that next canopy after 100 jumps. Go for the maybe too big canopy that you will eventually outgrow NOW, jump the SHIT out of it - 200-300 jumps or more. You don't need to get to 1.3 wingloading right away. And 50-80 jumps is way to soon to be at 1.3 according to nearly all conventional wisdom.

Remember that the ace swoopers, the ones who run canopy schools, typically have 1000 jumps at 1.1 or less.

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Canopies open hard because of two things: the way they're packed and the size/shape of their slider. And even how they're packed is less of an issue than slider placement and size/shape.

The design of the canopy itself plays an important role as well.
So if you are comparing openings of the same canopy, then yes, those two things matter, but since you bring about shape of the slider, it seems as if you are talking about generalities.

And if you disagree, I invite you to try jumping a crossbraced canopy without a partially formed nose. There's a reason they don't make them that way - they would break you.

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--------yawn......................

Thanks for your contribution.

This is not a rehash of the same old discussion. This is an attempt to move things forward. If you find it boring, you are welcome not to read it. Those of us involved in this discussion wish to be, and we are not doing it for your benefit.

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This ongoing debate is to determine the need for a license at all; as well as coming up with a better system if one is useful.

That's understood.

I'm of the opinion that licenses are for students and determining basic survival skills. Once you get into experienced skydiver disciplines (RW, Freefly, Skysurf, Freestyle, CReW, Swooping, etc) there is no license to do it, and there's no certification of who can and can't be an instructor.

The people who could have gotten the D were already running their own successful freefly schools, or training for competition.

My remark wasn't intended to denigrate the D "license". But the way you described it was in essence that there are only 3 people good enough to do it.

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You also mentioned that the test is "pricey". I agree with this point 100%. But would it be pricey if it was more applicable?

In other words, what is the cost benefit for the system in place now? to answer: About $100 per license (I paid about that much for my A).

Yes, if it were more applicable the price wouldn't be as much.
Heck I don't even want to think how much money I spent getting an AFF rating.

Your figure of $100 per license is off. The C and D tests have two balls, and thus require two jump masters. That's two slots, plus two coach fees, plus your own ticket, plus whatever licensing fee. It's closer to $200 than $100.

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www.skydiveseb.com or you can ask me and I'll help you as much as possible.

do we really have to mail a check?

Any way to email info and reserve a slot with a credit card?

This is the 21st century now...

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below 15,000ft you have indefinate "useful consciousness". Above that it is measured in minutes until you pass out. Eg at 21,000ft it is 8 minutes.

There's quite a few folks on most dropzones without much "useful consciousness" at ground level!


Something not exactly whuffo related, but why is it that it seems impossible to correctly spell the brand names of skydiving gear on for sale posters?

Javalin, stilleto, saber, specter, cypress, triatholon,vecter

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To my understanding, it is the A and B that can be given by the instructors. I believe it is the C and D which have to be give by Olav or someone else with clearing from Olav.

and who are "the instructors" ?

Swanson needed clearance from Olav to do a B last year.

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Dude, I am all for your RF test. Those are some excellent ideas there.

thanks dude. glad to hear it. Only one thing. It's not my RF test. It's our RF test. It's everyone's RF test.

the very sound of "your RF test" is the very reason why our present and hopefully past system has failed.

That's what I'm talking about.

Some very good ideas there.

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Freeflying = total body flight = belly, back, tracking, headdown, sit and the 3 axis’. And the 3 axis’ must be performed in all 5-body positions.

It doesn't end there. Try doing a 360 during an atmonauti dive.
You mention 5 body positions, but those are only discrete samples. There's a continuum of body positions all in between and all kinds of other odd positions, like knee flying, ass flying and shrimp flying, and stuff we haven't named yet.

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Only three people have been able to pass the D test.

Only three people so far have bothered to make the effort to train and pass it.

There are plenty of people who are good enough to get it if they applied some effort, but they don't. Because they don't feel the need to prove that level of accomplishment to Olav, or anyone else. When you're that good everyone already knows who you are, or they will soon.

Especially since the two ball tests are pricey to take. You have to pay for three slots and two coaching fees plus watever additional "processing fee" there might be for certifying the result.

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Many people (myself included) feel the Millennium Dive/3D Award is a more accurate measure of one's all-around skills as a freeflier.

while I like the 3D award, in concept. It is unfortunately 3 very very simple head down points for a proficient head down flyer, 3 very very simple belly moves for a proficient belly flyer, and 3 very very advanced sit moves for a very advanced head-up flyer.

So it's not perfect either, but it's nice.
And it's also unregulated. I could get one by just filling out the form, and it's only honor that keeps it honest.

I'm just getting around to this thread, as you knew I would.
Lots of stuff that I haven't read through yet, but I wanted to make some initial comments before I pursue it further.

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Personally I believe the Freefly community as a whole would benefit from an independant freefly license system that 1st places an emphasis on safety and 2nd on personal achievement.

Why does freeflying need a "license" ?

RW, CRW, these don't require a license.

Licenses are basic. Advanced stuff takes ratings.
AFF rating. SL/I Rating. Pro Rating.

But there's no rating for RW. There's not even any qualification to be an RW organizer. Or CRW, who says who can do that or who can teach it? It's technical and dangerous, but it seems to be pretty self regulating. Same with Skysurf, Freestyle, Style, Canopy Swooping.

Even video flying for tandems doesn't require any rating, and the USPA has often kicked around the idea that it should because those folks are potentially endangering the life of unlicensed jumpers.

Now as to a system that rewards accomplishment and recognizes skill? woo hoo I'm all in favor. Freefly progression is missing milestones, and there needs to be milestones well before the AD A test, which is pretty advanced.

And more important than the skill level for the testees, the ratings for the testers is even more critical.

An AD A is not a good candidate to be a ballmaster, an AD B is much more likely. But that's just being a ballmaster for a fun jump. Who can actually administer the tests?

Your suggestions are good. A controlled carve around the ball is an important skill. As it is now, one can pass the AD A with inadvertent orbiting around the ball. (I did - even though my test was not "legal")

Another thing that had come up as a suggestion in the early days of the test is controlled verticals, in essence an eagle with the ball.

Catching the ball in a head up position - a highly advanced maneuver - well worth demonstrating.

One handed versus two handed grabs is another distinction. Keeping in mind that it's a lot easier with the dominant hand. One should be able to do both, in both head up and head down.

Unfortunately, Olav didn't seem to be interested in giving away control of this system. This is a significant part of what alienated him from much of the highly experienced freefly community at the time. As members of his inner circle branched off to do their own things it became questionable as to whether they were authorized any longer to perform the A tests.

In fact, if you look at the wording of his "license" it really only gives you a "license" to fly with HIS "spaceball" in HIS "spacegames"
Ball jumps elsewhere are not condoned or authorized.

And it's just as well because they are a logistical nightmare in most places.

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i only have 70 jumps, and i just started to sit, or should i say to try to sit

i am curious on how long does it generally take to get stable in a sit , and then to control it?

Everyone is different.

I've seen a basic sit position - holding still obtained in as few as five jumps. I've seen it take much longer. It took me much longer.

total control in a sit? I'll wager that no one in this forum will claim they have that. Some of us are happy with what we can do, but we all know there's far more to go.

I'm talking about being a head up diver and taking a stinger slot on a head down base. Or a head up AD B. A handfull in the world right now might be flying at that level. An AD D? Not many at all, and definitely not without a lot of training for it.

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Never done 9 jumps in a day either.

This is a significant point. 9 jumps means 9 openings on top of whatever you were doing in the sky.. Even the softest opening canopy has to decelerate you from 120 mph, and then you are hanging in that harness. But if the soreness is specifically in the legs, it's definitely connected to building up the headdown strength.

With more jumps it goes away. Or the pain just becomes part of your life that you get used to.

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Wow, Malaysia. Do you have any freefly coaches at your dz? If not, I would suggest taking a nice vacation to find one.
Do you have many freeflyers there?

There are a couple of decent freefliers in Singapore who jump in Indonesia mostly but Malaysia sometimes as well.

Check out www.skydiveasia.org. They can help with the basics.


As to recovery, you don't get off student status without being able to recover stability on your belly. For freeflying altitude awareness is important and we make a plan to get flat on our bellies somewhere between 4000 and 5000 feet, sometimes higher.

An audible altimeter is hyper essential for maintaining altitude awareness at high speeds.

Malaysia skydiving is not safe. If you wanted to freefly with 9 jumps, no one would really stop you or make sure you had a cypres, or audible or hard helmet. Mostly because they don't freefly themselves, and don't know anything about how to teach it, but if they started telling you you couldn't do it, then it would become clear they knew nothing about it, and they'd lose face.

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I was just wondering if anyone got the new bonehead guner and if they found it better or worse than the mindwarp? it looks like a 'smaller' helmet but it costs a lot more (especially for us canadians)
any input on the guner?

thanks

Well, I haven't seen one in person, but it seems like they've at least fixed the style problems from the last two editions of the mindwarp.

However the switch to the metal "seat belt" style clasp is a big minus for me.

It was one thing on those rubbery z1 helmets. At least no one was going to try to mount a camera on them. But people put camera mounts on their boneheads all the time.

Try this experiment - close that metal clasp, then put it under load (simulating a snag of sorts). You will not be able to release it.

Then again, most folks going camera will hopefully use a chin cup as well.

Question for folks using suunto watches as altimeters.

The new "observer" model is pretty stylish, and I'm thinking about getting one.

User replaceable batteries are a plus however it they claim about 12months of battery life, but significantly less if you use the altimeter function.

What kind of battery life are you guys getting?

The Watch is not recommended for skydiving but does have a log book feature to keep track of "ski runs". I'm assuming a skydive would look very similar, and it might make a nice backup to see just how many dives I've done in a day. Has that feature been working well for those of you using it?

Thanks for any info.

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"Fat Cat Syndrome" ? - happens often to market leaders. They get complacent and things turn bad very quickly after that...

Yes, but sunpath is slow now because they have a huge military contract, not because they made a lot of money and let themselves suck.

I believe they know that in the short term they might lose customers over delivery issues, but on the plus side, the influx of money from this contract will fuel more research and development and improved production facilities such that they will continue to be able to make a top quality product in years to come and will eventually gain back any market share they have lost.

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Regarding Mr. Apoil, dude never pissed me off. Just confuses the piss out of me cause I can't figure out where he's coming from or what he's getting at.

That at least is completely intentional!

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Now, tell me this Mr. Apoil. What is the real motivation for you replying to my post? You come at me as if you want to debate something, yet you do nothing but reinforce what I say. Quite often you quote me for saying something and then try to debate the same point. I believe your intentions are nothing more than to butt heads with me every time you see me post. If that is the case then may I warn you that you will loose everytime. Simply because I think about and research what I am going to say before I chime in and run my mouth.

research things like my name before replying?

Had you looked at my profile you might have called me "Mr. Poil" but that is indeed a pseudonym.

Did you research this?

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Headdown bigway is quit the opposite of a belly bigway. Typically we always put our best flyers in the base and inner ring.

Because I heard Joe Trinko say that you should put your best flyers in the base of a belly dive as well. Nothing opposite about it. vRW is the same as RW, it's just more difficult.


Why did I post? Like I said, because I felt you misrepresented what it takes to achieve mastery. If you go and clarify that later, it's not my fault.

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Hey everybody, I know there's a bunch of rumors going around about Olav and the AD test. I'm going to clear some up.

First, the one about now only Olav and Stephania being able to give it, FALSE. You can find a full list of instructors at www.worldfreefly.com,

I'm looking and I don't see a full list of instructors.
If you mean the list of "national representatives" it looks to me like that's just the list of the person with the lowest "A" from each country.

The website says what you have to do to take the test, but no where does it seem to say where or with whom...

The B and higher are even more difficult to obtain. Not because of the skill, but because of who can administer them. Last I heard, no one, without specific prior approval from Olav.

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When I sign in under "Opera" this website still lists me as not signed in. Is anyone else using Opera? If so, is it just a cookie thing or something else? I don't have any difficulties using IE6.

I use opera.

I seem to have the same weird problem. you appear to be not signed in, so you sign in, and still appear not to be.

but in actuality you are, you can move on from that screen to other places where your status is properly indicated. I never fully understood it, but it's not a major problem.