LuvToFly

While that may be true of some (most?) helicopters, it is not (or should not be!) true of most airplanes. Most airplanes, even without any sort of autopilot, fly just fine, straight and level, hands and feet off the controls if properly trimmed. In fact, I think you'd be pretty surprised how well some of them can fly and be controlled without functioning primary control surfaces. That is not correct, and denies the physics, fellow skydiving friend - I speak from experience - I am a licensed pilot for both fixed wing and helicopter, and can speak to this. Helicopters are known in aviation as "inherently unstable" This makes them different than planes in that you cannot release your hands from the controls - particularly the cyclic control. Inherently unstable means that it WANTS TO CRASH - you have to keep it from doing that. If you let go of the controls - YOU WILL die, and quickly. You must intervene, or you will be tumbling towards your death. For airplanes, theoretically, a plane will continue to fly if you could trim it up perfectly, and continue perfectly on that course AS LONG AS THE FORCES AGAINST IT REMAIN UTTERLY CONSTANT. As we know - that is not possible. Variations in air density, winds aloft, barametric pressure and temperature can all affect the course of a the plane. If this was not true, autopilots in big airlines would be redundant. The fact of the matter is that a plane WOULD crash and you would die if you did not intervene in the case of an airplane as well - because it will NOT continue to fly straight and level because the forces acting against plane change as it travels through the air. "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

1) Ski Jumping (you know, the big ramp where they fly through the air?) 2) Any form of conventional aviation. Take your hands off the controls, and you will die - especially in a helicopter. You must intervene to stay alive because you are hurling yourself through space - 3) A bad marriage (no explanation needed) "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Way to go, dude!!

Anyone else out there gonna be in Eloy between Feb 4 and Feb 14th?? "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Thats not correct. Many swoopers will readily admit that HP landings attemps are a big cause of accidents. It realy comes down more on a how people want to deal with it, which is at the extremes - let Darwin take care of things - ban swooping (with the obvious shades of education and regulation in between). I dont think many swoopers would want to ban swooping, but you'll find several who want a mix or regs and education. Agree with you Remi that it does not apply to everyone who swoops. Nothing applies to everyone. But a great many people in the advanced manuever category get very defensive - insisting that there is no added danger being created by advanced manuevers and small HP/ZP chutes with heavy wing loading. And that is just not realistic - Remember - the people out there with the greater experience - with the greater number of jumps, are setting the tone for the up and coming jumpers. Like it or not, many folks look up to them. Let's make sure we set a tone of reason, some prudence and safety - as least as safe as one can get in this sport. Otherwise, we have created a, "do as I say, not as I do" and that just doesn't work - With skill and notariety, comes great responsbility also. Just saw an article on an instructor hooking too low, broken pelvis, pins sticking out. Let's be cautious folks. Students and up and comings are watching - Let's lead by example - Sometimes, a nice calm canopy ride is cool - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Jumper03 & PDS - Not exactly dealing with an instructor on this end either. Just something I would like to better at - and don't have the $2,700 to fork over for training camp - TOM "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Gone up to Eloy from Feb 4th (arrival, afternoon) to Feb 14th (flyout at noon) Is anyone else gonna be there over that time period that would like to work on some RW? There are always good folks to jump with there - but just thought I would post to see if anyone had a particular interest?? "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Gary - I think it is only natural to be a little spooked when you see your bud get hurt. It sort of brings it all home - especially a trip to the hospital. There are a couple of things to consider 1) Do you feel prepared when you go up? I found it indispensible to find a nice quiet office doorway inside the drop zone and practice the entire process of the jump, starting from sitting on the floor of the make believe "plane." 2) How do you feel about the sport? Not everyone is cut out for this. That is not said to discourage you.. no way. But pay attention to what you are feeling about this. Do not let either $$, your feelings about yourself (which seem to be an issue in this post) or anyone else's opinion get you to step out of the plane. It's okay to say - "not feeling good about this one." If you know that, it might take the pressure off of you... 3) Training, and knowing what to do, fights fear. Ask your instructor to explain anything you may be in the slightest bit vague on. One thing that really helped me in AFF.. I did really great, and kicked major booty - but I was not really having any fun to tell you the truth because I was concentrating so hard. Then I thought, "hey this costs toio frigin' much money for me not to be having a really great time doing it..." That changed me and I began to smile, relax, and really for the first time enjoy the experience. It was not that I had fear of jumping - it was that I was afraid to make any "mistakes" and wanted every jump to be textbook. And while most of them really were textbook, the price was no fun - that sucked. So make sure it is fun for you - not careless fun, but informed fun. You may find that your anxiety just melts away and your performance benefits to boot as a bonus!! "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Bill, Thanks for all of your insights into this topic. I've lurked a couple of threads now we folks are arguing about safe vs. non safe, etc, and the pattern emerges: - Folks that Love to swoop argue vehemently that this is not the cause of injuries/casualties - Folks that do not want to swoop believe it is a great cause - I think the problem here is that we are focusing on specific manuevers - low hook turns, etc. That's not the issue. The issue is unsafe practices, vs things that are not preventable. Like you said Bill, the large part of injuries/deaths are not taking place under student or very lightly loaded canopies. There are reasons for this. The smart student is cautious - has paid attention to all the safety drilling, sets up early and does not push the limits. That, combined with a forgiving nature of light wing loading keep these instances down. When one goes to heavy wing loading, and gets further away from that awe and respect that we get drilled on in initial training (at least those of us with sense) things start to happen. Bigger chances, higher speeds, more dangerous manuevers, and a higher belief in one abilities - whether justified or not - all play into injuries in particular I believe. A person can get cocky at 12 jumps, 120 jumps, 1200 jumps or 12,000 jumps. But undue exposure (that which is NOT purely mechanical in nature - and not talking about bad pack jobs, someone not examining their frayed stitching, these are preventable) comes from factors that are controllable. As someone said here recently, had set up too late for the turn and made a judgement call - but still, the truth is set up too late for the turn. In any activity we get further away from our fears from training. How many people remember every safety question they took during their drivers test? Better yet, how many people DRIVE by all the driving rules at this time?? We are taking chances and push things - I think it is important to realize that more experience does not necessarily equal safer flying. If it did, not one with a lot of experience would die due to poor judgement. But I agree with folks - poor judgement can happen at any level of expertise, in a hook turn or not. But if you are flying a forgiving canopy - you stand a better chance of walking away. That is just as true as accidents at slower speeds have a better chance of survival. Canopy flys faster, less chances. The only diffence depends on the pilot. He has to know how to handle the less forgiving nature - and respect that. We need to stop acting like folks are doing "everything right" when in fact that manuevers that people are doing today would have scared the crap out of people just a few years ago. Just because one can do a thing, does not mean they should do a thing - because you never really know how many times you can do it - and get away with it - Skydiving is NOT safe. But it can get a lot worse - It is about our judgement and our common sense. We can turn up, or wratchet down so many of the risks involved. It's not a manuever problem - it's a people problem when it comes to erring on the side of conservative, respecting unknown factors and making allowances, always making allowances for one not being able to pull off what they did last time... To repeat, it is NOT safe, but everyone with a canopy is not created equal in skill, or in judgement. And if we don't learn to respect our own limitations, then it will be regulated - like it or not. We're all on the same side of this arguement. We all want to live, to enjoy the sport, experience the freedom - but let's do everything we can to keep it that way - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Folks, Where is the closest tunnel to Eloy? - and how long would it take to drive there? TOM "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Michele - Don't want to break the mood, but just wanted to ask... who was Jackie, and what happened to her? I saw the post announcing she was gone, but I did not know the circumstances. I feel very bad that this happened, but don't even know her. Can you illuminate? Thanks - TOM PS: Great name - my sister's name as well "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

"Ever notice that the folks that have been in the sport for a few years don't call skydiving "safe"? Its only the newer jumpers? Think there is a reason why the old timers don't call it safe, but the newbies do?" ----------------------------------- There definitely is a reason. And one of the biggest reasons is because the newer folks are not pushing the envelope, and the more experienced folks are. The folks that are doing the advanced maneuvers should be more frightened of injury or death - if they are flying less forgiving canopies the size of a hankerchief, doing spirals out of the sky, and squeezing the most they can get out of a chute and a jump, there IS cause to be more concerned because you are making the dive more dangerous - regardless of experience level. Also, I am not sure that anyone is actually arguing that skydiving is 'SAFE' I did not read that into any post per se - I think the point is, while there is risk involved, we CAN make it a lot less safe depending on how much we increase our risks - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Jeremy - Here in Pennsylvania, and you are right, the weather really bites the big one. I personally could not stand - to not jump. So I went to Eloy for the first time on December 14 for 10 days just so I could get my "A" Then I came back here and froze my "A" off, and then realized, it is so frigin cold this Winter out here that my damn currency is going to expire before I can get back in the air - and even though that just means jumping with an instructor once to get checked out if you have not jumped within 60 days, I paid too much to go backwards. So I am going out to Eloy again February 14th for a bit just to A) Get into something warmer than 30 degrees and B) Enjoy the sport. For $200 round trip from PA to Phoenix, I "can't not" TOM "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Thank you, skybytch. It's nice to see the moderator chime in with some real sense about this. Hopefully that will ring true in the ears of those who might be influenced towards lower wing loading, risky manuevers, etc. The hanger pressure is there, and I can't be affected by it - But there are a lot of younger people getting into canopies that are too small for them, and trying to keep up with the "pros." Increasing the odds by testing the limits takes the fun out of the sport as far as I am concerned, and works to give it a bad name. Thanks for your voice of moderation. We should all err on the side of safety in this sport, lest we be regulated right out of it - TOM "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Folks, Understand what you are saying - But some of you are so experienced, and you have failed to see the sport from a Newbie eye.. From the Newbie eye, at least from the conservative newbie eye - I think folks are frigin' nuts. Swooping looks like an accident waiting to happen - just a few feet off and, "smack." Low turns, casual about equipment checks, I have watched some very experieced skydivers very closely, and frankly, I'm scared for them. This is not a wimp talking, I fly helicopters, have done free flying, etc. And although nothing is 100% safe, I have to believe that pushing the limits is by far the causes of injury and death in this sport. You need to take at look from the Newbie eye who has been taught all of the safety rules. To me, I want to stick around to enjoy the sport - so no swooping, no low turns, no flying in too high winds, and on and on. It needs to be fun - Had some skydivers tell me, "Oh, thats how you feel now when you have 40 jumps.. but once you get more experienced, you'll be doing the same kind of moves.." Wrong. Won't do it. Too old to be that foolish- don't want to test it. If you took all the stats for every single injury and death in this sport (yes, I have read tons of them), and stripped it of all preventable incidents, you'd probably be looking at something much safer than driving, less injuries than soccer or football, and more appealing than many other sports. It is not the malfunctions, but the screwing off, carelessness and thinking one can get away with testing the limits (i.e. arrogance) that creates all the stats in this sport, and that is what gives it a bad name - "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Hope you are joking about the unemployment check... right?? "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky

Lany, Just wanted to tell you that I understand. Sometimes, trying to help others in this situation is the best thing you can do - either through education, understanding, or direct involvement. What I have chosen to do is to reach both the abused and the abusers through a Website I created for this purpose. If you go to... [/url]http://www.helpforhurt.org[/url] ...you will read a true tale that may touch your heart, and hopefully, you will not relate to. Feel free to pass this URL along to anyone else you think may benefit from this resource... Everyone has something about them they can offer to benefit others. Find yours, and you will find healing. TOM "The helicopter approaches closer than any other to fulfillment of mankind's ancient dreams of a magic carpet" - Igor Sikorsky