Bartje

600ft, what does it give in seconds? My expririance says that I win, or loose, more then 20 sec. Exit before the Slow freefallers after waiting 10 seconds give 10 sec. seperation. Exit before and the seperation is 30sec. In 30 seconds I'm already 1000ft lower with my canopy before opening from the next group. A fast canopy does loose altitude fast, 2000ft a min. (not agresive flying); What's the explanation for the next incident. I was jumping after a group slow freefallers. I did wait 15 seconds, on on separation (4500ft) I tracked over the formation. Later on we looked at the video and nobody is doing anything extreem (no tracking, nothing special). The group before us was a RW6 and we where with 4 FreeFlyers. I start thinking that the drift from a group FreeFlyers can be bigger than generaly taken. It is the only explanation I can think of. There was a lot of wind at the ground and at altitude. A FreeFly Gypsy

$2.00 extra , no problem for me if I have to pay it extra. It is a suprise for me to notice thatthat safety has a price. Is there a price for safety? A FreeFly Gypsy

So perhaps it is better to do the drop in two runs, one run for the fast and one run for the slow. A FreeFly Gypsy

the goal is to increase opening seperation, No joke at all, The last 3 years I did see too many accidents due to havy traffic over the landingzone. A FreeFly Gypsy

A possible solution for spreading the traffic would be to drop downwind with the fast freefallers exits first or upwind with a minimum distance of 2000ft. Anybody? A FreeFly Gypsy

Thats the biggest argument for the current safety rule at the moment. It works to avoid in air collitions but it do not work for enlarging the time in between opening from the first canopy and the last canopy and it is not safe at all with fast canopys wich have to exit and open after the slow canopies. Fast FreeFallers (FreeFlyers) jump smaller groups than other disciplines but ofter fly faster canopies. btw, I think that the program does not include the parameter for the surface from a freeflyer to the horizontal wind, is there anybody who has more details from this program? A FreeFly Gypsy

How to spread traffic over the dz, due to trafic over the dz there are accidents. One way to avoid accidents is to spread the traffic. This is not so easy because the time that canopies open is more or les the same time that skydivers need to exit the plane, even less because the fast freefallers are exiting as last due the current safety rule. Would't it be more safe to let exit the fast freefallers first so the time needed for everybody to open his parachute is longer and as well the time that parachutes are landing? The argument now is that the fast freefallers(FreeFly) exit last because there is a possibbility for an in air collition. Often the FreeFlyers has faster canopies that the other skydivers and will be faster back to the ground even when they exit after the not so fast FreeFallers. Now in France they changed the rule last year. On a windy day the FreeFlyers exit last, when there is not much wind or no wind at all the FreeFlyers exit first, during those days the traffic is well spread and much safer than on windy days. I like to know your opinion for this French rule and as well new ideas to spread the traffic. Greetz Bartje A FreeFly Gypsy

I did not organize a student weekend the last 5 years, I organize pilot gaderings for intermediate pilots. A FreeFly Gypsy

If you have problems to land your canopy on a small field after 50 jumps you better start thinking to jump an other canopy. It is not the canopy who makes the landing, it is the pilot. The program I read on this link is good for after AFF. In the past we organised student weekends. One of the goals was to land in an Cible 50 yards in diameter with a 10 yard dead center. The things I read on this link I did already in those day's. I still have the feeling that we have to look forward and not backward for the context for the next canopy course. I'm not speaking for the intermediate pilot but for students with less than 100 jumps. A FreeFly Gypsy

I do not see any aerodynamic canopy basics in those exercises. What's the briefing for each level? A FreeFly Gypsy

You said it all man, Canopy piloting is not only flying your canopy it is also a state of mind. Greetz Bart A FreeFly Gypsy

Is that not the goal for this discussion? As I see it, the majority incidents happens with a good canopy and bad piloting, not only bad for the pilot himself but also bad piloting from other pilots where you have to anticipate for. During my week at Z'Hills there was even a canopy pilot who did a right turn were de briefing said you have to do a left turn last turn before landing) During my setup point I did see his canopy before me at +/- 50ft. Was it my mistake? The man was not used that there were other fast canopies before him. I can start a discussion for this but the thing is that it is not only bad piloting from yourself what can give you troubles. You can not find that in statistics. Fact is that there is too much traffic and we need to find a sollution for that. We need an other vieuw for canopy pilots, an other vieuw on freefall (fast and slow freefall) and we have to change our mentality. Canopy piloting is not only flying your canopy.

There is no more or less to disregard the manufacturer’s recommendations now then in the past. It is the evolution in thinking about parachutes. The OPEN CANOPY INCIDENTS like you say is a problem what in my opinion is the traffic and fast and slow falling skydivers who all opens in the same minute and want all land on the same spot. Canopy collations is the big reason for accidents. There is no simple solution for this problem but like you can guess I do have my idea for this. The problem begins already in the airplane. Who’s exits first, RW or FreeFly. A logic solution is to exit the RW as first and later the FreeFly. It is a good solution for separation but not for traffic. When they dropped like that, pay attention to the time what the first parachute and the last parachute lands. If you can find a drop zone where it is possible to jump first as a FreeFlyer, pay again attention in between the first and the last parachute to land. You will see that the period is bigger. The landing traffic is spread in time. The only reason that we do not do it like that is that you can have an in air collision. Do you ever heard about an actual in air collision near you? I did not for 12 years. An other factor is that FreeFlyers are often flying smaller canopies than RW. (On the dz’s were I jump). I need after opening 90sec, without flying extreme with my canopy, to get to the ground. When I’m jumping after the RW I do not have a clear pad to the dz and often can not exercise my swoop. When I’m before the bigger canopies I we all have clear pad to the dz. The perfect solution you can not determinate but the French rule is in my opinion a good one. When there is much wind the RW go’s out first. With not much wind the FreeFlyers are going first. Not for the horizontal separation but for spreading the traffic over the dropzone and try to create the safest environment. I’m not taking any position in who exits first, as long that it stay’s the same during day it is ok for me. One element in my course is the orientation under canopy and awareness for other canopies. When you go out first or last, you always have to know where everybody is. A FreeFly Gypsy

Yes straight-in approach, think in lines and not in circles. You can aim to a spot but you will fly in a line. A FreeFly Gypsy

thinking in landinglines is better than a circle. When you do PL, CRW, round canopy jumps or any kind of non swoop landings than you have to think on a landinspot, for some it is a circle. When you start swooping you have to start thinking in lines. And yes, even far away from the dropzone you have to think like that. Somebody who thinks in circles to land his canopy do not see the things (obstructions) in front the landingarea. You can cal it as wel object fixation and that is not good. You talk about survival skills, I called it canopy skills. Sure you need those skills, every canopypilot has to, questions is. When I look at the chart then I say you need to show those skills from jump 201, then the real progression start. Like I said, the chart is a good guideline. A FreeFly Gypsy

The 1000 jumps needed to fly a cross braced canopy let me remind the days when the Blue track, blue track pro and stil. where new. The manufactors did say you need 1000 jumps before you can jump one of those canopies. The same for the Bat Wing and even the Pd from Pd. It seems like yesterday that my aff instructer was on the dropzone with an Stil. 150 in his rig. He could not jump the canpopy from the chief instructer because it was a new and fast canopy. A FreeFly Gypsy

you are right, here is the info from Icarus: http://www.icaruscanopies.com/canopies/EXTreme_FX/index.htm they write less surface (for me shrinking) in context of distorsion. A FreeFly Gypsy

The moment when you are comming out of the turn your canopy is almost 25% smaller. From the moment when you give input your canopy wil regain its planform. Not 100% but for about 95%. And Yeah, comming back with a 107 and start your swoop with a 89 is real. Look at the swooppics from convential canopies and braced canopies. When the pic is made from front you see that your convential canopy is like a harmonica, more than usualy. A good moment to feel the lesser surface with a non cros braced canopy is the moment that sometimes you feel like turbulence on your canopy the moment you give input. The diferance between a deep flare and a not so deep flare with the same canopy. A FreeFly Gypsy

Stop thinking in circles, start thinking in lines. For the rest it is al basic canopy control before you can move on, I agree. A FreeFly Gypsy

The best example I can think about is a student who I had a few years ago. Tommy Jammar is his name. Before he finished the static line course he had already buy him a rig with a 175sqft canopy in it. Tommy has easely 90kg (198Lbs). Way to fast I thought but we could not talk him out of it. I was surprised that he did well with his canopy. Tommy had already a good idea about aerodynamics but not even 100 jumps before he did buy himself a Sabre170. Nice canopy he said but it did not give him the things he wants to do and quite fast he did buy a Spectre135, at that time he had not 250jumps. A nice canopy but like you can guess, not doing the things he want to do. Next step was a Vengance120. The ideal wing load he said but he did not like the openings. Next step Velocity120. That was it and he jumped 200jumps with this canopy. I thought he was now happy with his canopy but no, next step an Fx89. He was one of the first CrossBraced canopies ever to jump at Maubeuge. At this moment he did realise that his WL was too high and he did lose performance. Finally I did buy the Fx89 from him. At that time I had about 800jumps and Tommy not even 500. Than there is Ivan, Ivan was Tommy’s skydive buddy. He did a progression not that fast as Tommy but he was jumping an Vengance120 (his weight is 80kg or 176Lbs) before he had 500 jumps. Those two students were well guided and they did well. At this moment I have other students who are jumping, when you follow the chart, with too small canopies but they do fine until now. Even last week at Z’Hills I was with Max. Max has about 500 jumps and flies a Crossfire2 109. He had fun at the pond. His feet in the water and all landings were good. If you need more examples mail me, I’m sure that the chart is a good guideline but as a rule it takes some student out of it. The examples I wrote are 3 out of 10. The other 7 where not ready to jump the canopy they want but it takes an other 300 jumps if you look at the chart and I’m sure that they are ready in the next 100jumps. I guide the people who wants to fly extreme canopies. I guide as well people who want to learn more from the current canopy, It is the choice from the individual, I’m not pushing people into the extreme canopy flight, let that be clear, I try to guide them as good as I can. Than there is canopy size. As I understand you are jumping a Stil.107, do you realize how much it shrink when you do a 180° or 360° turn before landing? It shrinks almost 25%. That is the actual canopy size you fly at that moment. Take a Cross Braced canopy, it shrinks about 12%. Is it calculated in the chart? A FreeFly Gypsy

I agree with davelepka on the point for the students, I never disagree with him. Canopy piloting is much more than guiding students; somebody bringing the skills to fly a canopy can not put in rules, it is more putting yourself into the head from the student and try to understand what they want. Here is a guideline a good thing, just to look who you have in front of you and than you can go further. There are people ready to fly a smaller canopy than what the charts says and there are people never ready to fly a smaler canopy. It is al in the head, for student and coach. Greetz A FreeFly Gypsy

I do think you are missing my point, I prefer that students fly a 100% of their skills with their canopy, it does not mean that 100% of their skills is 100% of the canopy (limits). When those % are not both 100% than there should not downsize. The 100% of my canopy is more than I need, I’m happy with the 75% I use to fly it. I’m not planning downsizing again. I would have to fly with a WL that is to high for every kind of canopy to get more performance out of it. I can take a Velo88 to get to 2.1wl or a Stil.107 at 1.9wl but than I have to fly it always at 100% for the same moves, speed and landings. The 101% (what you think is not possible but I can assure you it is) what gives me not any margin in performance for those situations where I need it. As I read your comments it is good that you feel happy with your canopy and that you have the feeling you have it always 100% under control. Every canopy pilot has that feeling but that makes it dangerous. I’m not afraid to say that I’m a little bit afraid from my canopy because I know what it can do but I know at the same moment that I can fly it where I want it to fly and how it fly’s. If I land hard or make a mistake it is me and not my canopy. A hard landing with a wl from 2.35 or 2.1 or 1.9 stay’s hard and can hurt you a lot. It is just to get to the 100% that pilots are doing unsafe manuvers or take risks. That is for me the 101% pushing yourself over the limit. Charts are a good guideline but not good as rule. A FreeFly Gypsy

ok, we are talking to people who are to fast going to a smaller canopy, just did say it that you can find your limits on a canopy. Every canopy what pilots fly good is a safe canopy in that case, it is the pilot who is making the mistakes. I do not want to fly my canopy 100%, the 101% gives troubles, the 75% is already more than what I see other skydiver get out there canopy. The chart is a good guideline but pls, I do not hope that it get a rule. A FreeFly Gypsy

I used to fly a stil.107, I can tell you, it did pushed it once to far. My canopy was going over it's limit's like you can do with a car on the road. I was looking for some more speed in my canopy and man, I can tell you, after a 360° on frontriser my canopy was stalling, you read it ok, it was stalling and it was not that my stearing lines where to short, no, there was a V-shape in my canopy the moment I want to flare. My wingload was 1,8 on the canopy and there was almost not wind. I do agree that jumpers downsize to fast now but I still stay with my idea that it is better to fly your hpc canopy with a good wingload at 75% than A low wingload at 100%, it is the 101% what can give you problems so wy flying always at 100%? The chart as guideline is good, jumpers with not a lot of jumps stays that way in a canopyrange where they never will outperforme the canopy but on the other side, where is the learningzone when you have to fly a conopy where you cant learn with? A FreeFly Gypsy

It is not easy to make a chart. Once I heard that you have to keep it as simple as possible. This is not an easy subject to make a chart. -How many jumps you're doing in witch period? -What’s the dz altitude? -What’s the difference in between performance with a 2,0 wing load for somebody whose weight is 50kg and 100kg? -How do you put individual skills into a chart? There have to be chart as a guide but please, I do want them as simple as possible. In France and the Netherlands they have quit strictly chart, so strict that the instructors do not have to worry any more for the funjumpers but where is the fun? Charts are good as a guideline but I do think that as instructor you have to look as well to the person skills. Why getting your canopy to the performance limit, are you not bringing yourself to the danger zone? This is maybe cliché but are you getting the max performance out your car? I do not think so, why pushing your canopy to the limits as you can fly an other canopy with the performance you want without bringing it to the (safety)limits. The excuse that I hear most is: what are you going to do when you have a problem under your canopy? Well, it is still the canopy pilot who makes the decision and not the canopy. If you have 100 jumps or 10000jumps, it stay’s the same. The proper attitude is the most important thing and you can not put it in a chart. A FreeFly Gypsy