shadowswoop97

Here is something my friend Ian gad written about his approach. Blues, Ian Well, as with all things in swooping, each method brings about it's own set of challenges and pros/cons. Instead of me saying what's right or wrong, I prefer to try and get people to work with what works best for them. I find that helping them break down their turn into various steps (trying to maximize the energy in each step) is far more successful that telling them do it X way That said, basically what we should be trying to do (however we accomplish it) is make our canopy dive as steeply as possible, all while keeping the rotation as slow as possible. It's very easy to rotate too quickly and not spend enough time generating airspeed, but also to rotate too slowly and never really get diving enough. It's a bit of a fine line hehehe. The braked approach technique brings the following pros (IMO): 1) We're able to slow everything down. Descent rate, forward speed, etc as we approach our initiation point. This allows the pilot to be relaxed and more accurate IMO. 2) Theoretically, if we have enough altitude we're able to enter the turn with more forward speed than full flight. For example (and these numbers are bogus but for illustration): If a canopy in a braked config has a forward speed of 15mph, in full flight has 30 mph, and in deep front riser flight has 35mph then, in theory and if done correctly, we can enter the turn with 35 mph forward speed and build on that. (see cons for the downside hehe) 3) Altitude accuracy is a little easier as we can 'trim' our recovery arc during the turn and with the speed of the fronts being released at the end of the turn (too fast will kill speed though) 4) Oversteer is rarely a problem because of the nature of the double front approach. 5) It's easier to hold down the fronts further (and longer) because of better leverage. It's important to turn by moving your torso side to side as opposed to lifting a riser to initiate the turn as you cannot 'get it back down' if you need to. Additionally your torso has more strength and will allow you to keep your hands in the same place in relation to your shoulders but stagger them in relation to the canopy by shifting side to side (it's a mouthful but does that make sense?). Cons: 1) 99% of the pilots out there using this method start turning WAY too soon after releasing the brakes. 2) It must be started higher (not a con IMO but worth noting that it'll change your setup). 3) The harness becomes unloaded (depending on how you do your double fronts). If you stay on them until the end you lose a lot of harness control until they're unloaded. There are ways around this though (twisting techniques). For my bigger rotations (450's) I start loading the harness after about 90 degrees (off topic but worth noting that different rotations have different techniques). Now, to answer your question about my ideal turn. I start with giving myself a good length base leg. If you hug the gates too much you dont have enough time to regain the speed lost from the braked approach before having to turn. Once I'm approximately 5-6 seconds away from my turn point I ease up on the brakes and take advantage of the canopy diving to pull my fronts down to my shoulders. I try and ride this configuration for 4-5 secs min. I then start to stagger my torso slightly, leaning as much as I can in the harness. The first part of my turn is the slowest. Then gradually and SMOOTHLY I start to accelerate my turn. The acceleration curve being the minimum amount of increased speed required to keep the canopy in the steepest dive. Once on heading I release my risers, slowly, at the speed I will need to adjust the recovery arc through the gates. I guess in a nutshell that's about it (there are a lot of details missing though, but they're tweaks). It's important, no matter what turn you do, not to have pauses in it. A consistent rate of turn, or a turn that slowly speeds up are far better than whipping the first 90 and then pausing only to continue turning a second or 2 later. At that time the pilot has lost airspeed, dive and has to regain it before accelerating further. Wow...ok, so that was a lot longer reply than I anticipated, but I hope it answers some questions and gets you going in the right direction Blues, Ian A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Advertisement: I love my Pilot 150 - Pia

Quotesomething about this thread is stupid. who would want to swoop anyway. full brakes or not...friggin retarded. FIRST OFF IF YOU DONT LIKE TO SWOOP THEN WHY ARE YOU IN A LEARNING FORUM FOR SWOOPING, imho, full flight is better to gather an understanding of your canopies consistent movement - hence making it easier to predict the coming action of your wing upon pulling down a riser. just the way i like it anyway. full break would leave me questioning what is about to happen unless i am super-duper current. sub-stall speed to full on front riser turn is a much wider margin to deal with than full speed to front riser. THIS JUST MEANS YOU ARE 1. NOT WILLING TO PUT EFFORT FORWARD INTO TRYING SOMETIHING HARDER, OR DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU ARE USED TO. 2. YOU JUST WANT TO BAG ON PEOPLE YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ANBOUT SOMETHING YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT NOTHING BEING DISCUSED HERE IS RETARDED EXCEPT YOUR ATTITUDE

what Dave said is very true, I guess I know I generate more power speed, I can feel the difference through the gate. If we are calling my topic of discussion retarded, Thanks for the info , but no need for criticism in a conversation people are trying to learn from. In a full flight appoach, you are snapping yourself into a dive and allowing the canopies recovery arc to produce, and create your speed which you transition the speed through the gate any into the course. In a full brakeed approach you are allowing yourself f-more time, and more altitude. If properly exicuted the speed is being built prior to ever actually putting yourself in the dive, therefor instead of the recovery arc building your speed, your recovery arc is using all your speed to generate more power through the gates and into the course. In full flight you may reach your max speed prior to ever getting to the gate and delivering the power. In a full braked approach you are harnesing and building your power then transfering that energy through the recovery arc intio the course, in other words you are reching your max speed while plaining out not before, which in turn creates more speed power and lift through the gates. I think we are leaving out a huge factor. The amount of rotation that you are doing with these techniques. This is effective and works well with 270's but it really starts coming into play with the bigger rotations the 450 and so on, Boy I wish Jay could chime in on this one. guess everyone has their own technique, I will stick with what I've learned,

definately, I know hwat you mean, I can feel and see a difference in the last 100 jumps, and it keeps on getting sweeter. i can't wait to get my new 79 JVX Hybrid, I get to load this thing correctly now. Under my 85 I am at a 2.3-2.4 depending on my bod weight, now with the 79 I will finally be at 2.5-2.6 Look out boys if you think I was fast before. All in all though stu keep it up looking consistent and smooth man, Nice flying, wish the second half of the comp went better for you, You gonna be at the Festival? See you there, Nick

I can see your point, aside from the setup difference there is a difference in wings, and yes the Velocity is the closest to the JVX, but how many jumps does Ian have under the Velocity with his current set up, and how many jumps do you have under your JVX with your current setup? Just give it time and the dark side will take over the force. Hey Ian when are you switching over to the dark side? Wait till competition pilots have as much training under their JVX as others have under their Velocities over the past 5 years, the time has come, change is part of evolution.

nice video Stu, though it looks like different days and different runs though. How long ago was the JVX swoops, seems like you were generating more power in Colorado, Iknow the altitude, but for real I bet your going even further now, oh yea hows the body treating you after that spill with the wind blade, talk to you later. Nick

sorry about the caps, didnt even look up at the scrren, huntin and peckin you see, I do agree though it is a tough technique to master, and even then everything has to be right for the generation of the speed to be used efficiently through the gate. Thats the hard part doing that turn and always hitting the exact altitude needed to generate power and hit the gates with all the power. Thnaks for the info on the tapes dan was asking about those, hes just a little more forward about actually doing things needed to be done than I am. I read you arent making it to the swoop festival, I guess I will try to see uou in Brazil, how much is that trip gonna cost?

Which is no different in a full flight approach For the sake of the discussion it's safe to assume sufficient altitude for either one bUT IF ALLOWED THE SUFFICIENT ALTITUDE FOR THE TURN RATE, IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT THE FULL BRAKED APPROACH WILL BE ABLE TO DIVE LONGER DUE TO STARTING AT A SLOWER SPEED WHICH IN TURN MEANS THE CANOPY WILL HAVE MORE TIME TO REACH ITS MAX SPEED WHICH IN TURN GENERATES MORE SPEED OVERALL

I am curious to know which method of hook turn approach is more well suited to build speed and generate power, the Full Braked approach? or the Full Flight approach? In what ways does each one specifically affect the wing and change the flight characteristics for the better or for the worse?

here are some nice shots of me

They are fun, havent had much practice trying them on the JVX only a few times,. maybe I will try some more since I have a RDS now, Also have you spoken with betsy, see ya around, nick

Ye s Mark, I notise it slightly during certain portions of the turn, nothing noticeable coming out of the dive though, have had no interference coming out of the corner, but something to look at, Thanks Mark, and yes Grant my horns are working great, i use them every day. They will see you and your bullhorn at the Swoop Festival, if your gonna be there

I can understand what you are talking about, as for two hands thats the way I like to remove things, I just dont trust loosing my trash and having to go find it later cause my one hand slipped, and also Mel has a patent on the one step release system. I can see what you are talking about mark with the rings, maybe I will have some slider stopper ledges sewn on the inside bottom of each riser, when I pull the grommets past the ledge, it will not excape back up during any exicution under canopy. Also like I said, I will deal with a little extra which by far is not much things to do, if the canopy opend nice with the system. And there are a few hundred jumps on a jvx with the system, and everything is still working properly, Thnaks for your concern boys, Nick

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=download&id=4162

Nick Batsch performs a blindman on land

Sorry for the confusion on the machined rings, turns out they are very well manufactured, my previous statement about them is retracted, I appreciate your imput. As far as the patents go, i will see that Kirk is aware of there presence in this matter . Thanks again Mel

Nice job dan, looks like your consistency is helping you lead the pack

Mike whittenburg has 200 jumps on it and myself have 20 jumps on it now. I notice no slow openings or mals or line twists. The slider is made to the true shape of the original, and will open better because of the rigidity of the grommet system. These grommets are actual icarus griommets, they are set into a hard plastic, and work great. I can send you a video clip of the openings a bit later when I get time tonight, thanks for your concern. This is likeno other rds on the market different grommet system.

It opens better than the original slider,. I can upload some video of the openings a litlle later this evening when I have time. The overall design is very thought through, and made specifically for the jvx. each corner has two conection points to the grommet system and they are cut in on the corners to allow for the proper shape of the slider on opening due to the extra material on the grommets different from regular sliders. I like the system very much and prefer it over any of the rds I have seen on the matket thus far. Also the gromnmets used are Icarus grommets, rather than some custom made metal alloy grommets that you have no idea what they will do to your lines because of the metal they are made of. call me if you have any questions

There is a RDS available through Nick Batsch from the rigging loft Para Concepts, we have RDS available for the JVX the JVX2.0 the Velocity , vx and so on, If you have any questions or would like some video of the system, contact nick Batsch at 314-708-0440

I think that you should stop your repetitive whinning and get on with life, everyone gets to choose what they want to do in life, it part of growing up, If you don't like your situation then do something about it instead of bantering on about how the CPC just does not work for you, I mean there are over a hundred cpc competitors making it work this year alone, and its only the second year. Give it time, if you didn't know it's a lot of work creating your own sport, and making a spot for yourself in it, then now you do. set your goals and get it done. see you on the tour in the future,

jeffro pulled the miracle man off at the Mile High Canopy Cup on June 10th, he executed it perfectly and went on to win the event and the overall competition. It is now officialy the hardest move, nice one Jeffro

I do believe that Hans did not rock me in that speed round, check the scores, he may have had first in the event, but he tied Nick Batsch for the fastest speed round through the course 2.76 seconds

I can see your point of view, maybe this discussion should be posted to canopy piloting.com, only to have more direct answers from the creators of the rules. I am not sure if Jim checks into this forum often. If Chris Hayes could comment that would be great also