JAGdb

If Tom and EU can make the testing happen, why not ? Cast as many nets as possible...maybe the testing will yield a common or reoccurring sequence which could point to the hijacker. Now if they could then test the shroud lines as Olemiss mentioned and match to that, we could have something. But the FBI just doesn't seem interested in having this solved, they closed it in 2016 and that's it as far as they are concerned. So getting access to any evidence (the shroud lines or hair sample or their DNA results) died in 2016 or when Larry Carr retired. Tom's team did have access to the shroud lines, I believe they measured the length etc. I wonder if they had the foresight to take swabs or sticky tape samples from where Cooper would have held the lines to make the cut ? Not sure if anyone has ever asked him, I am guessing if they did he would have already said so. But let's say the metagenomic results yield something like this, i.e. a heavy reoccurring sequence. It won't actually say "my name is John Doe". They would still somehow have to run it through one of the ancestry type databases right ?

Are the details of it anywhere ? It seems as though the Citizen Sleuth web site has been sealed in time circa 2017, never to be updated again. I hope I am not mixing things up but I thought I saw something about it on one of Olemiss's recent DB Cooper Sleuth youtube videos, (which I am enjoying). So is this just a more exhaustive DNA scrub? Eric is involved or is this all Tom Kaye ? For the vacuum filter samples, is it identified from where on the tie they came from ? It's definitely worth the effort. When the results come back, I imagine there will be numerous DNA profiles as a result of years of contamination. How will they be able to isolate Cooper's DNA from non Cooper DNA ? (The last time they did a DNA test, it came back that Tom was the hijacker !)

Well, I finally picked up the Gunther book and read it. It was a very good read. I can see how the book fills that empty void to the story that us Cooperites are hungry for. While I didn't like the fact that the story had him abandoning his family, I still found myself rooting for him. In some ways, it feels like it is a little bit of a tease, coming just close enough, but not far enough to completely convince you. Here are some quick hits that caught my attention: Gunther has Cooper in the incorrect row, 15 instead of row 18. Was this information not available at the time that the book was written ? I can understand Clara getting this wrong after 10 years. Page 33,34: Captain Scott leaves the cockpit and goes back to talk to Cooper. According to canon, this did not happen. This is a huge discrepancy that raises credibility concerns. Page 36, (very bottom): "No, I don't want military chutes. They've got to be civilian type. With a rip chord". I believe this is unique to Gunther right i.e. it isn't in any of the 302s or other sources ? Did Gunther get this from Clara ? Or from Himmlesbach ? Page 42, (middle): "Use the aft stairs" Cooper telling the crew to have the passengers exit the plan via the aft stairs. My understanding is that the only time the aft stairs were opened after 305 left Portland was when Cooper opened them to jump. So this would be another one of those discrepancies in the story that leave you scratching your head a little bit. Page 47, (top) Cooper tells the crew that he has an altimeter stop watch on his wrist. So this must have come from Clara. If this was true, I would think that once the FBI read Gunther's account, they would have had their eye brows raised and convinced that the person who contacted Gunther was legit. So this bothers me a bit. Page 137, the bomb was made of red painted tin cans. This is another discrepancy. Tina said that the bomb looked like it had sticks. When we hear the word "sticks", we think thinner in diameter and longer in length. Where as with "tin cans", I think of standard soup cans like Campbells or something. They are larger in diameter and shorted in length. Unless they could have been confused by Tina, which I find hard to believe. Page 143, he talks about a canvas pack here and I believe in another earlier section of the book which I forgot to note. It was a little confusing as to whether this is simply the bank bag that the money was delivered in or if this could be that mysterious bag that the hijacker reportedly had, do you guys have a read on this ? Page 143, He reportedly asks the crew "Where are we now?" Another huge discrepancy in the official story. To me, another example that if it was true, the FBI would be all over this being the real hijacker. The scar on the hand, (I lost the page number), is this the origin of the scar or is there another independent source that states the hijacker had a scar on his hand ? One part that I find difficult to believe is how he was able to just walk away from his kids. I can kind of understand the wife part of it . I know he connects with his daughter, but still...what about your son ? You could just walk away from him for the rest of your life ? Man that is tough to buy. In addition, the idea that the daughter could completely keep this secret from her mother and brother ? And then, as far as we know, once the book was published, the person(s) never reached out to Gunther ever again--well this is my assumption as I don't know this for sure. It's just so bizarre, it doesn't add up. All in all, I enjoyed the book. It's fresh in my mind right now, I am still processing it in terms of where I stand. Is it just the product of a hoaxer with a very good writer or is there some merit to it ? There's a hell of a lot of detail for someone to go this far out of their way, and the curious fact where it spanned a period of 10 years of silence from first contact followed by new contact and what appears to be hours and hours of phone calls telling the story...for no money ever paid out.

Latest from Dr. Edwards: https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/24385999-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-the-radio-ham-revisited

The question around these darn shards is where they were found and whether they were derivative of the original 3 packets or not. It doesn't seem like the FBI ever made a definitive statement on this. Perhaps the condition and size make this impossible to determine?

Yes, you pretty much hit the parts of the story I was thinking of being a little too hokey. Being nursed back to health by Clara and then falling in love and getting married etc. (pretty much the definition of the Florence Nightingale effect.) Sometimes real life is hokey, so I suppose it's possible. Or maybe some of that is what Gunther filled in. But what brings me the most pause or doubt is that the letter writer never delivers on his promise to provide proof of authenticity. Nor did Clara. It wouldn't take that much, they didn't necessarily have to produce a $20 bill, they simply had to give a piece of information or detail that only the hijacker would know.

In the original letter to Gunther, wasn't there an acknowledgement that the writer wouldn't be able to collect any of the proceeds? I thought he asked Gunther to donate a portion of the earnings to a NYT charity or something ? The hoax scenario doesn't make a lot of sense to me given the way it played out. As you ask, why come back 10 years later ? Was the hoaxer(s) in prison for 10 years, waiting to complete the hoax they started ? I doubt it...it just doesn't add up. But once you come to the conclusion that it was not a hoax, it then follows that it would have to have been the real cooper of someone related to the real cooper. Then you run into some parts of the story that don't seem to sound realistic and that begins to cast doubts. BTW, do we know how much money the book made and if Gunther kept all of the proceeds or donated a portion of it to the charity specified ?

I agree with this in terms of using it as an educated guess. In the same sort of tea leaf reading, IF Cooper truly didn't know that flying with flaps and gear down would prevent the plane from reaching Mexico, then he almost certainly was NOT a pilot i.e. take pilot off the list. It's not 100% definitive, but it is a reasonable conclusion.

I used to love pondering and theorizing about Tine Bar, but now it pretty much gives me a headache. As mentioned many times, there are still too many unknowns to solve this riddle. The diatom and now silt research perhaps helps slightly, but I wonder how much weight it really carries in terms of ruling in or out a possible scenario. I liked where Galen Cook was purportedly going with this testing: "My investigation into the D.B. Cooper mystery branches out into many areas of inquiry. Tina’s Bar is just part of my overall probe into the case, however it does hold some fascinating clues if one wants to conduct a deeper examination. Back in 2009, SA Larry Carr and I discussed the issue of the Brian Ingram find, particularily as it pertained to the decomposition of the $20 bills. Later that year, I associated with a particularily experienced scientist from Portland who agreed to come on board and work with me at the Tina Bar discovery site. We basically mapped the entire area into a scientific grid. We had the full support of the Fazio’s and unlimited access to their beachfront via their private drive. Our experiments apparently caught the interest of the FBI. The Supervisory Agent in Seattle put me in direct contact with SA Curtis Eng. Then, the FBI released the “Palmer Report” to me. That report cited a most likely “arrival time” of the $20 packets at between 9 months and 12 months prior to discovery. Palmer’s specialization was “shoreline process,” which would allow a scientific examination of sedimentary deposits and the strata of the beach soils. A packet of bills found at a particular strata on the shoreline can be correlated to a specific period of time in which they “arrived.” My goal was to try and simulate the money find, including the decomposition process, using various controls. We conducted our experiments both at Tina’s Bar and in the lab, and then replicated them more than twice in order to gain confidence in our experiments. The results of the experiments will be published at a later date." But for whatever reason, he seems to have abandoned and lost interest.

This would have been nice to have been able to do: "In addition, Tom Kaye claimed that he has asked the WSHM if he can apply sticky stubs to the fabric of the parachute’s container to ascertain if any of the mysterious particles on the tie came from the engine exhaust of Flight 305 – which might have blown back into the cabin area when the stairs were lowered. However, the museum has refused his request." It's a shame that the WSHM won't cooperate on this or any other inquires regarding the chute.

Good to hear from Bruce again: https://themountainnewswa.net/2023/11/20/coopercon-23-delivers-new-information-and-good-times-to-db-cooper-world/

If true, It's odd that they didn't come forward after the money find. The part above about finding corners in a small hole 3 feet away from the estimated money find location is new to me. I remember the part about the find 100 yards downstream. But without sources or corroboration, it has to be taken with a grain of salt. If memory serves me correctly, Galen has the source information. But as he was supposedly writing a book about Gossett being the hijacker, he was keeping it all under wraps. Follow ups for me would be: - Were the corners cut cleanly as if intentionally done by a human ? Or were they just broken shards from natural forces ? - How did they make the first find on Tena Bar, in the small hole 3 feet away from the original find ?

Without any new information, Tena Bar is just a tough nut to crack. Hopefully, Tom Kay or others may have some new information to share at Coopercon regarding new testing ? I have always been curious under what conditions does a packet of money, in this case a packet of 100 bills, harden/stick/congeal ? Is it something that can happen quickly under the right conditions ? Or does it require time ? Does it require one wet/dry cycle or multiple ? I would think the money not being disturbed from the tightly held together packet form is a requirement. We know that if the packet is loose in the water on it's own, it will fan out. If it remains loose in the water for an extended period of time, then it might not settle back into the proper packet form to stick together ? Could the money bag have provided enough protection to aid the process ? Was the money hardened/congealed prior to arrival at Tena Bar or afterwards as it sat beneath the sand enduring rain, sun....wet/dry cycles ? To me, some of this could play a role in what options that the money could have arrived at Tena Bar, i.e. dredge, flooding, tumbling along bottom etc

Another angle on this to consider. As I understand it, Bourbon was actually falling in popularity during the 60s. It was considered a more traditional, old guard choice. It was your father or grand father's drink, as opposed to Vodka, which was considered the trendier spirit of choice and giving the Bourbon and Whiskey industry a run for their money. So, if Cooper did in fact order a "Bourbon", it may very well be in line with the age profile of 45 to 55 and with someone who was more "old school" as opposed to a counter culture type, so to speak. In addition, Bourbon is an American drink, so perhaps it could also be inferred that so was Cooper as opposed to being Canadian. This kind of stuff is always a little tricky, of course there are no absolutes and there are always exceptions to the rule, but it's fair game for a profile building exercise. I thought that someone posted the drink menu from NWA a few years back...not sure if it was here or on Shutter's site.

I did watch EU's new video on the flight path last night. No disrespect to him, but it's mostly guestimating based on where that fiber glass apron was found (Cinebar?) and Cliff A.'s statements to him about the variation of the radar hits, "a mile further west"....so I didn't feel like it moved the needle for me. He is saying that he feels that cooper landed within a mile or two of Tena Bar, but he didn't really address the jump point and time as it relates to his new flight path. At this point, I'm still mostly in the camp of the standard FBI/SAGE derived flight path. But I do find some of Dr. Edwards work into the timing of the plane along flight path interesting.

Right, but who knows, even if he landed within a mile or so of the sighting, it's dark and there's still a lot of woods and terrain. Maybe he got stuck in a tree and it took him some time to get to the road where he was sighted.

So, most likely, if the top and bottom bills were darkened prior to FBI testing for finger prints, it was mold right ? Or could there have been trace silver in the bank bag from possibly holding silver coins in the past that rubbed off on the bills ? Regardless, is there anything here that could be used to further the case ? If it was mold, what type of mold ? Under what conditions does the mold form ? Does that tell us anything new about the story of the money ?

Something about this isn't quite adding up to me. Eric has been a proponent of the Western Flight Path, (I believe a slightly different version from R99). One of Eric's main assertions is that the FBI/Air Force flight path is really the flight path of the F106 chase planes and that the actual flight path was ~10 miles to the west. So how does moving the flight path two miles to the east fit that ? Is it a departure from his original theory ? The blue line above doesn't seem to reflect the "two miles due east" as it approached the air port. Guess we'll find out on Wednesday.

I hear you on the reports of fragments and clumps etc...but it all seems to be unofficial. If they indeed found the fragments and possibly clumps, I would think that it would be part of the official summary regarding the Tena Bar money find. There's no reason I could think of the FBI wanting to keep that quiet or under wraps. In the reference that Chaucer sited, it indicates that the clump was sent for analysis....well, where is the report of that analysis ? Has Larry Carr ever commented on this ?

If the above account is true about the fist sized clump of money, why wouldn't it be part of the official FBI story or documented evidence regarding the Tena Bar money find?

Nice pic, so a paper band holding 50 ten dollar bills for a packet and then rubber bands binding multiple packets? it's hard to tell exactly. This was delivered from a bank in Montana I believe.

I believe this is from the teletype transcript, anyone know why someone wrote in "Portland" at the 8:05pm entry? Did whoever wrote that in think that the plane was by Portland at that time ?

Thanks... Maybe if you look forward from an angle with the stairs still protecting, you would be able to see portions of the forward direction. Olemiss, maybe next time you talk to Mcnally, he could give his experience. Although I believe his plane was traveling much faster...

Could Copper look forward from the air stairs ? I was thinking that he could only see what the plane has already passed. If he leaned over the stair railing to peak forward, would the air stream or force of the wind snap his neck or at least make it hard to keep his eyes open ? Or was the force of the wind not as bad as I am thinking ?

Yes, I was thinking he had a compass. He took a pocket knife out, so not too far of a stretch to think he had a compass. Heck, I believe there were watches that had compasses built in even back in the 60s/70s. Maybe he had it in his pocket the entire time, and put it on once he sent Tina to timeout up in the cockpit. (All speculation of course, but within reason) Maybe he even had a small flash light, hidden in the brief case or the pink/green bag ;-) If he came across rail road tracks or a road, that would be ideal. I know they always say if your lost to follow a stream to civilization. It wouldn't be easy, but if we think that he wasn't just and average guy, maybe had some type of military background, I think he could manage with the head start he had. With a major injury, all bets are off. But I think he either had prior personal knowledge of the general area, i.e. Washing/Oregon state, or he prepared himself as part of the mission. ("right place and right time" comment). So he would have had a working knowledge of the geography, roads etc. Perhaps your right about Mexico, anything is possible, I can't get there though. I just can't get over why he wouldn't choose a flight closer to Mexico if that was his plan. But I haven't studied the details enough, maybe there weren't flights closer with a 727....I know a few years back you and probably some others were looking into all of the flights with 727s in that time period.