JAGdb

Always enjoy Bruce, as well as these videos you are doing Ryan. I just find the narrative that the CIA/Deep State had to orchestrate this DB Copper Hijacking for the sole purpose to get more air port security a little silly, i.e. metal detectors in air ports or requiring more information from passengers to fly. Why on earth would they need to do this ? There were already so many hijackings, wouldn't those already be enough reason ? The government enacts laws and strong arms private industry all the time without the need for covert operations as trigger point.

I'm a little behind, so catching up on some of these episodes now... First let me say that Sergeant Major Mike Vining is a class act. Not only is he an explosives expert, but he also had sky diving background, you couldn't ask for more as a guest. He tended to drift off the topic of the bomb a little, Darren did a nice job trying to refocus him. He did leave me wanting a little more..in particular, I wish he spoke a little more on whether the description of the bomb indicated the presence of the blasting caps he kept bringing up or not. (I guess it didn't) I was a little shocked when he said he knew people who jumped out of 727s, I was hoping he was going to go into that a little more. How could he possibly have known ? Was he saying he was familiar with the Air America stuff, I thought that was all top secret ? Before I listened to this episode, (I actually listened to it 3 times), I was of the belief that: - The bomb was most likely fake - That Cooper had some military background in explosives After listening, based on what Sergeant Mike said about the size of the battery, the lack of "dynamite" wording on the sticks, and his comments on the seemingly amateur and senseless trigger mechanism of having to touch two wires together, I am still in "the bomb was fake" camp. But I no longer feel that Cooper had a background in explosives. I think it was a bluff 100% of the way, he only needed to convince the stewardesses and the brief case bomb may have been right out hollywood central casting for this purpose. I think Fly posted about the movie "Airport" from 1970 where there was a brief case bomb, maybe that was an inspiration? On a side note, was the question of whether he was suicidal or not and how that is tied to the question of the bomb being real or fake. I don't necessarily think one implies the other. While he did say that he wouldn't be taken alive, this could have been a bluff as well. But even if it was not, I don't get the vibe that he was willing to take everyone with him. Maybe he had a pistol in the bag or even the brief case that he would have used to go down swinging so to speak. Anyway, all conjecture and subjective on my part. Question to Oldmiss, were any of the other copy cats suicidal or willing to actually take the plane and the passengers out if they didn't get their money ?

Great points, I love the Midwest dust bowl angle and Johnny Cash suggestion is good one.

For tongue and cheek, I'll throw out Leaving on Jet Plane by John Denver.... But as far as what music he listened to, it was a little tougher than I thought. I was trying to figure out what music he was listening to as he was coming of age. For me, I think I was set in my musical ways or taste by my late 20s. If he was born roughly between 1920 and 1930, that puts him in his mid late 20s roughly between 1945 to 1955ish time frame. So that kind of spans a dramatic shift in music from the end of the big band and crooner era into the early rock and roll era. In the end, I am going to go with the style of music that was more popular when he was younger man. I think I can kind of see him listening to some "Old Blue Eyes"....I'm going with Sinatra. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if before he left for "the job", he dropped the needle on a little "My Way" ! He certainly did this job his way.... By the way, this is all in good fun, I know he was a criminal and I don't mean to romanticize him like a hero or something. Maybe some day we will find out just who he was !!!

This is a fun question and it requires a little bit of thought...

No apology necessary, that's a great update and thanks for sharing !!! I think it is an important part of the suspect profile puzzle !

Thanks for the response Cola. The reason the Benzedrine anecdote is interesting to me: 1) I think it is part of the pilot/military/aviation discussion. Military personnel, particularly pilots were issued Benzedrine for long missions. By 1971 I understand that amphetamines were common knowledge and in use among the public, but I still think if he did indeed offer them that it has it's root in mission based preparedness from prior military/aviation experience. 2) From a strategic aspect, Cooper brought it up for one of two reasons: - To really be used as an aid to the long flight to Mexico. Or - As a way to make everyone think they were in it for the long haul while he planned to exit the plane as quickly as possible and give himself a better chance at getting away. I did a little bit of digging, just to kind of close the loop, found this article from Bruce back in 2013 where he says: " According to Tosaw and Gray, Cooper also brought several tablets of Benzedrine to keep the crew alert." https://themountainnewswa.net/2013/02/06/the-hunt-for-db-cooper-who-was-cooper-what-is-known/ In the Vortex, Gray has been a somewhat well respected source. I believe he had cooperation from the FBI for his book and access to the FBI files and evidence. So he must have got it from this access. Tosaw was FBI, so he had access to everything. But as you mentioned, other than a news article, it is nowhere in the FBI files that have been released yet. To your point, how could it not be ? If it was part of any of the stewardess testimony, it should be all over that portion of FBI files.

Full disclosure, I have no background in the discipline of Stylometry. But my immediate take on this topic is that the sample size is too small. Could comparing one small letter be enough to draw the conclusions that were being made? Questions popping into my head like if you took 100 or 1000 other comparable sized control letters and compared them to the same group of Barb's letters, would you get any other similar results i.e. 97% certainty. Other questions I have are more generic to Stylometry and false positive statistics? How does it compare to a DNA match which is typically 99% accurate ? What are the odds of two people writing in a similar way both structurally and using a similar vocabulary catalog ? I think more work needs to be done to validate the initial test. One of the things I missed in the Youtube video, was how or why Barb Dayton became the target of the Stylometry exercise in the first place. I am going to go back and watch it again.

Ryan, good discussion on Youtube the other day regarding whether or not Cooper was a pilot, Pat had some very insightful points in favor, Jersey girls brings it ! (couldn't really hear the lady from New Zealand very well). You guys touched on the fact that he seemed to not realize that flying dirty would limit the range of the air craft and make a non stop flight to Mexico impossible. This is what has always given me some pause as well, if he was a pilot with any substantial experience, you would think he should have known that. I am in the camp that he just wanted to get the plane flying south also, and may not have really cared about ever getting to Mexico. However, I am still not sure this dismisses him not anticipating that he might get called out on his request for a non stop flight to Mexico. Another less frequent item brought up by Pat I believe was the Benzedrine. I may have asked this before, but what is the origin of this ? Was it in the FBI files or did it come from Tosaw or Grey ? Unrelated to the pilot question, you guys also touched on one of his biggest blunders that could have done him in. That being where he seems to have allowed for an opportunity for everyone to bug out and leave him on the plane by himself at Seatac. As well as he seems to have planned out the "job", he wasn't perfect...but as they say, sometimes it's better to be lucky. When I think about this, I wonder would Braden have made that mistake ? BTW, here is the latest from Dr. Edwards in case folks haven't seen it yet: https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/24580716-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-lou-rucker He seems to be trying to get some of the names and details for the people that were jumping out of the 727s for Air America/Southern Air Transport. There was a blurb in the last FBI doc which indicates that the FBI was looking into a tip for someone who fit the hijacker's description and was part of these jumps: [Redacted] has close associate known to [redacted] (LNU) [Last Name Unknown] of Ft. Hood, Texas, [redacted] at same time in nineteen sixty-four. [Redacted] made numerous sport jumps from rear of military equivalent to Norjak plane [Boeing 727-51]. Jumps were made from rear door in exactly same manner as unsub [unidentified subject] in instant matter. Also made numerous night jumps. [Redacted] described [redacted, four letters] (LNU) as being white male, olive complexion, five feet eleven inches, one seventy-five lbs., well educated, chain smoker, age [redacted], excellent sky diver from mid west. ... [Redacted] Portland, Oregon at telephone number [redacted] was shown composite of unsub [unidentified subject] and feels it would bear remarkable likeness to [redacted, four letters] (LNU) after having aged six or seven years.”

My post is pure speculation and wishful thinking based on the article from the Sun: https://www.the-sun.com/news/10410179/db-cooper-fbi-investigating-dna-richard-mccoy/ There is nothing official that the FBI has new DNA.

Just my two cents, but in last year or so, perhaps it was in the interview he did with Bruce, Larry Carr had cast a lot of doubt on the FBI's original partial DNA that they had derived back in the early 2000s. (even though we know that they were using it for quite some time to eliminate some suspects) This leads me to believe that they have recently conducted new DNA testing, whether it be on the shroud lines, the tie spindle, perhaps the hair slide, or something else and they now have a much better result, perhaps a full profile ? In addition, I wonder if they were able to compare the new DNA result to the older partial and perhaps determine if it is congruent or not ? That would be really interesting... Based on the recent news that McCoy's son has given a sample, I guess this implies that they never tested McCoy's DNA against the original partial DNA profile they had back in the early 2000s ?

The issue with this, and it goes back to the Gryder videos, is that there was nothing offered up that was even mildly convincing enough to standup under basic scrutiny. When you say "my father was DB Cooper" and offer nothing else, it feels more like we are in grainy big foot or flying saucer video territory. The parachute is in direct conflict with the vortex's best information on it. They offered nothing regarding the actual night of the hijacking i.e. details about where and when he jumped, what the actual "plan" was, how he got out of wherever he landed, how the money was lost, some of these answers should be able to explain the Tena Bar find. I suppose we will have to wait and see how it plays out.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/10410179/db-cooper-fbi-investigating-dna-richard-mccoy/ It would be a little bit of a disappointing ending to me if it wound up being McCoy. Mainly because the MOs don't really line up. How could the FBI be entertaining that parachute with everything that is wrong with it ? This is a strange development.

We need a celebrity comp, maybe the "Ted Turner" sketch ?

Does the board think that the hijacker was a career type criminal ? Or was he more in the desperate man category, had some type of life circumstance that compelled him to this one singular crime ? I'm not sure, I lean towards the desperate man scenario. In either profile, was the Paul Cini attempt the inspiration? What are the odds that two people were planning this type of crime at the same time in such close proximity ? By the same toke, could someone mobilize a plan so quickly, after getting the inspiration ?

Seems like they just do as little as possible, or the minimum required to show compliance with the letter of the law. They don't really want to give what people are asking. Maybe it's just a resource issue, but it feels like it is a little more than that. Maybe they just don't want sleuths figuring this out or perhaps they are working on it in the background.

Thank you for the response Dudeman. Marty, did your research about WW2 bail out survival rates include bailing out over bodies of water ? Time for me to pick up your book !

I guess this is what some of you were referencing a couple of days or so ago: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/25565774/db-cooper-case-not-closed-fbi-testing-tie-evidence/ I missed this part in the context of it: "Officially the FBI won't confirm anything, and Larry Carr isn't going to confirm anything [...] but based on conversations I've had with some people privately and based on what Larry has said publicly, I do believe they are re-testing the evidence."

I think your explanation is just about the only one that can account for the total 180. He went from "never observing him before, during or after" in the 302 to "I can pick him out of a lineup today" in that article--there's no wiggle room to that, except maybe a loss of his marbles. He did have his life flipped upside down briefly when in the immediate aftermath, the FBI implicated him as being the hijacker. Maybe that was enough to say he didn't see anything and get out of it as quickly as possible. At the end of the day, if he is telling the truth now, it's an interesting data point about the hijacker in terms of his profile, sort of in line with another witness's statement that said he had an "executive" type feel to him. But it doesn't move the needle too much. As far as Carr's profile, that he knew just enough to get himself killed, I'm just not there yet. I tend to think he knew what he was doing a little bit more than that. He carried himself quite well given the circumstances and gravity of what he was doing. Not saying he was a Braden type, I think he had a strategic lapse on the tarmac at Seatac that I wouldn't expect from a guy like Braden. But I admit, it's all guess work... Do we think that Carr's profile is the same as Himmelsbach's ? or the FBI's in general ?

Also, on the topic of seeing Cooper as a "hero". While I agree that he did a bad thing with the hijacking, this was a criminal act which makes him a criminal. Does it mean we put him in the same category as John Dillinger or Clyde Barrow ? There's a possibility for a nuanced position where he was more of a desperate man as opposed to a regular old SOB. Fun topics...

Thanks Ryan, I was curious what the 302s may have documented for Michael Cooper. It's really crazy, what a sharp contrast. We have his 84 year old self in this article making very strong statements, while the 302 is like a complete 180 nothing burger... Heck, he even says that he could pick him out of a lineup today ! And that both of the sketches are good likenesses... I would generally agree with the idea to go with the statements immediately after the events, that those would be more reliable. But gee-whiz, what is going on here ! BTW, enjoyed your pod cast with Jude and Chris...Cola was actually drinking "Cola"...nice touch ! No Pull ? I doubt it... Landed in the drink ? Most likely scenario if he died, but hard to put him in the Colombia based on the timeline and best estimates of where he jumped. To Cola or other jumpers i.e. Dudeman...was it really certain death that there would have been no way for him to disengage from the chute to survive a water landing ? PS Maybe Michael Cooper would come on your next podcast to explain...

https://www.the-sun.com/news/10227036/db-cooper-hijack-passenger-hostage-cool-boss-charge/ 305 passenger Michael Cooper is interviewed in this article. He has some interesting comments that I had never heard before. "[DB] was just, I would say, cool. Whenever I looked at him, he just looked right back and stared at me like he was the boss." Michael Cooper

If Tom and EU can make the testing happen, why not ? Cast as many nets as possible...maybe the testing will yield a common or reoccurring sequence which could point to the hijacker. Now if they could then test the shroud lines as Olemiss mentioned and match to that, we could have something. But the FBI just doesn't seem interested in having this solved, they closed it in 2016 and that's it as far as they are concerned. So getting access to any evidence (the shroud lines or hair sample or their DNA results) died in 2016 or when Larry Carr retired. Tom's team did have access to the shroud lines, I believe they measured the length etc. I wonder if they had the foresight to take swabs or sticky tape samples from where Cooper would have held the lines to make the cut ? Not sure if anyone has ever asked him, I am guessing if they did he would have already said so. But let's say the metagenomic results yield something like this, i.e. a heavy reoccurring sequence. It won't actually say "my name is John Doe". They would still somehow have to run it through one of the ancestry type databases right ?

Are the details of it anywhere ? It seems as though the Citizen Sleuth web site has been sealed in time circa 2017, never to be updated again. I hope I am not mixing things up but I thought I saw something about it on one of Olemiss's recent DB Cooper Sleuth youtube videos, (which I am enjoying). So is this just a more exhaustive DNA scrub? Eric is involved or is this all Tom Kaye ? For the vacuum filter samples, is it identified from where on the tie they came from ? It's definitely worth the effort. When the results come back, I imagine there will be numerous DNA profiles as a result of years of contamination. How will they be able to isolate Cooper's DNA from non Cooper DNA ? (The last time they did a DNA test, it came back that Tom was the hijacker !)

Well, I finally picked up the Gunther book and read it. It was a very good read. I can see how the book fills that empty void to the story that us Cooperites are hungry for. While I didn't like the fact that the story had him abandoning his family, I still found myself rooting for him. In some ways, it feels like it is a little bit of a tease, coming just close enough, but not far enough to completely convince you. Here are some quick hits that caught my attention: Gunther has Cooper in the incorrect row, 15 instead of row 18. Was this information not available at the time that the book was written ? I can understand Clara getting this wrong after 10 years. Page 33,34: Captain Scott leaves the cockpit and goes back to talk to Cooper. According to canon, this did not happen. This is a huge discrepancy that raises credibility concerns. Page 36, (very bottom): "No, I don't want military chutes. They've got to be civilian type. With a rip chord". I believe this is unique to Gunther right i.e. it isn't in any of the 302s or other sources ? Did Gunther get this from Clara ? Or from Himmlesbach ? Page 42, (middle): "Use the aft stairs" Cooper telling the crew to have the passengers exit the plan via the aft stairs. My understanding is that the only time the aft stairs were opened after 305 left Portland was when Cooper opened them to jump. So this would be another one of those discrepancies in the story that leave you scratching your head a little bit. Page 47, (top) Cooper tells the crew that he has an altimeter stop watch on his wrist. So this must have come from Clara. If this was true, I would think that once the FBI read Gunther's account, they would have had their eye brows raised and convinced that the person who contacted Gunther was legit. So this bothers me a bit. Page 137, the bomb was made of red painted tin cans. This is another discrepancy. Tina said that the bomb looked like it had sticks. When we hear the word "sticks", we think thinner in diameter and longer in length. Where as with "tin cans", I think of standard soup cans like Campbells or something. They are larger in diameter and shorted in length. Unless they could have been confused by Tina, which I find hard to believe. Page 143, he talks about a canvas pack here and I believe in another earlier section of the book which I forgot to note. It was a little confusing as to whether this is simply the bank bag that the money was delivered in or if this could be that mysterious bag that the hijacker reportedly had, do you guys have a read on this ? Page 143, He reportedly asks the crew "Where are we now?" Another huge discrepancy in the official story. To me, another example that if it was true, the FBI would be all over this being the real hijacker. The scar on the hand, (I lost the page number), is this the origin of the scar or is there another independent source that states the hijacker had a scar on his hand ? One part that I find difficult to believe is how he was able to just walk away from his kids. I can kind of understand the wife part of it . I know he connects with his daughter, but still...what about your son ? You could just walk away from him for the rest of your life ? Man that is tough to buy. In addition, the idea that the daughter could completely keep this secret from her mother and brother ? And then, as far as we know, once the book was published, the person(s) never reached out to Gunther ever again--well this is my assumption as I don't know this for sure. It's just so bizarre, it doesn't add up. All in all, I enjoyed the book. It's fresh in my mind right now, I am still processing it in terms of where I stand. Is it just the product of a hoaxer with a very good writer or is there some merit to it ? There's a hell of a lot of detail for someone to go this far out of their way, and the curious fact where it spanned a period of 10 years of silence from first contact followed by new contact and what appears to be hours and hours of phone calls telling the story...for no money ever paid out.