robibird

Yuri,
Stop looking at the WS as something like rigid plane. WS w the human body in it is not the definite flying object (I said this so many time )
What AOA I suggest?! This Q is impossible to answer. Each jumper has body weight distribution different. I suggest something easy to understand, which apply to every WS - keep the speed!!

Proportion is different. Results depends on so many factors, so that is why WS , regardless of the WS types is demanding toy to learn. Body position which is good for you will not apply to me.

Yuri as far as GR discussion goes, I will never cut the flight in to the parts. Either, jumping from the plane or cliff I am looking the whole jump because every flight has the same elements so my final interest is how far I flew.
This level of discussion is enough for this forum. more than this I rather sit and talk w you

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the first (at least) 30s of a WS BASE jump have strong dynamic effects (planeout) that cannot be ignored if you're serious about analyzing data not just amusing yourself with seemingly unhuman glide and fallrate from your GPS. You can extend the planeout to ~50s by constantly bleeding forward speed by small deceleration (which you don't really feel, it's less than 0.1g, or only about 2mph per second). It's just like a swoop, really!

Once you step off the edge in wingsuit, you don't suddenly become a superman by the virtue of doing WS BASE and all visual ques you have. Gravity gives you initial vertical speed exceeding your sustained speed, you then transform this kinetic energy into exceedingly fast forward speed and slower fallrate, and you then bleed this extra horizontal speed into better glide and slow fallrate. Your L/D, though, is not really better than what you can do on a thoughtful skydive. Just like during a swoop, the L/D of the canopy does not magically become infinite as you fly level, it's the same 3.0 or whatever it is at this angle of attack. Basic physics!

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What is your point Yuri?!
Strong effect of plane out?! What you have when getting out from the plane?! Strong effect of ''whoooosh'' or what?! You CAN have the same positive or negative sides on both exits. it depend on the pilot only. You can make the same mistakes jumping from the plane as you do in WS BASE start.
The ''plane out'' is the most common mistake BASE WS flyers does on their jumps. The ''plane out'' with WS is actually stalling and once you do this, outcome is known.

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It may sound unorthodox, but I think unless you analyze WS BASE data by transforming it with the formulae at the above link into real L/D (Oyvind of VKB is doing this, kudos!), the best training for improving L/D is long sustained "frozen" flights near clouds so as to minimize fooling yourself with dynamic effects and see real L/D.

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why?!
How about to cut 150 m of start and 150 m of opening and get rough info of glide? It is all about how you look at the GR. If you wanna take out just the part of the jump were you flying after diving for 300m , than this, in my opinion is one way of talking about , what GR is. If you look entire jump , from exit to opening( like you do when jumping from the plane) that is the another way. Right?! I think we need to find out about what system we talk.

You know, if I would dive for 300+ m and than ''plane out'' my glide ratio in my WS will be well over 3.
Is this reality?! What G.R. I am getting?!

Hey, In France we have good Map w good scale . This w the measurement tape we get info what is possible what not. It cost about 5 € tape + map and it is very accurate-believe me!

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What you can do is - look at the map of your DZ (or play with Google Earth), find some references at certain distance out of DZ, memorize them and try to fly from one of them to the DZ. Than it is very easy to look at your progression by just watching the ground.

What glide ratios are you guys getting by doing this? Are you correcting it for the wind? How do you work with this data? For example, if you're getting 2.0, then improve to 2.2, 2.4 and kind of reach the limit there, how do you know that there's no, say, 2.8 by using a different flying technique? (e.g. balancing the suit, maintaining angle of attack control, taking it's dependency on both pitch angle and glide angle itself (which in turn depends on AoA and so on) into account)
Yuri[/

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Knowing basic references near your DZ is always good because it gives you immediate info if your flight is crap or good. Using Google earth for anything more than this is pointless.

Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

Teaching ''student'' ( by student - I mean someone who is fresh in general with whatever discipline of our sport) or teaching experienced skydiver is not the same.
Heaving student organized and prepared for jump is different. Bother such person w fine tuning is just useless.
''Student'', no matter what you talking will focus on the parts of the jump were HE things HE is the weakest.
Instead of talking for hours about whatever, better is to recognize those segments and help student to go through it easier.
Faster student cover each segment , faster learning curve is.
For example, insist on not to be washy, or expect that one will not be washy or to expect the one will hold good proximity to other flyers is waist of time if student has no sufficient experience in RW jumps....in other words, for skilled RW jumper WS formation is super easy if he knows how to use the WS.

Unfortunately, Wingsuiting as discipline is very often presented way more complicated than actually is. Why, that is another subject to discuss...

Skill comes from knowledge and practice, knowledge comes from understanding. If there is no understanding about something, than it is so easy to fall in to the trap of making tons of jumps without improving at all ( goes for every discipline in our sport). Understanding how WS works is and always be my #1 subject to my ''student''.

That is why I think is good to show and teach people to use WS first for flying as best as you can.
Of course, Heaving Z-hills as the DZ or some smaller DZ is different thing. What is popular here is not popular at some other place so... it is not all in our hands anyway.

anything what out pops or popping up may become a subject of target ! Texan flock using shoot guns, here Kalashnikov is more popular - so be careful!!!

Guys & gals,

Talking with so much passion about vertical decent in way ''who is going slower'' is entirely wrong. Data such vertical speed does not have any skill value. If one jumper has very low speed on vertical decent, this saying more about his/her proportion , rather than skill.

Very great example is Ryan (Chuck mention his recently) were he flies great in his suit.

In general, lack of good and honest data about GR, horizontal component and winds directions in different altitudes unfortunately is placing vertical speed data as primary measurement of someone ability.

In other words, the Vertical speed can not be taken as the judgment of '' how flight is good or bad'' without having other data. Why?!

Because that way of understanding the WS flying / falling automatically place the lighter guys to become super great pilots while heavier has less chance to get in to the frame, regardless of their exceptional skill ( just because their vertical is higher than of the another naturally skinnier jumper?!)

Also having the vertical speed only as the tool to show student if he/she fly good is entirely wrong too. Very often exactly that approach could lead student to start focus on wrong flying position, wrong muscle memory, etc...

As the result, we get the very ''experienced'' WS flyer who fly slow vertical (if he is lucky to be light ) but w no clue that flying requires completely different body position. Sadly, flocking formation are full of that kind of examples, even though there is no reason to be like that. Flying together, rather than ''flying'' and checking the vertical speed later are often much more fun.

In my experience, flocking are nice if the flyers are using spread legs always , while adjusting the vertical and horizontal speed with arching the body. Kind of French way of flocking....

Once the legs are bend, even slightly, any chance of getting lift is over and the flyer is becoming faller. Keep that in mind.

C'ya at F&D

if you wanna fall slow without bothering about GR, ok, that is the way to go

Larger surface area is nice but it does not bringing the performance necessarily...

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In my opinion, the spine protector would be better built into the rig than the wingsuit. That way you'd have it on every jump, not just the wingsuit ones.

Good point!

Yuri did mention that in his post though

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Integrated rig can have its tray made of back-protection honeycomb, pack the canopy directly on top of the protection. etc.

Pointless. To ensure the protection work 100% as it designed, the protection MUST be close and firm attached to the body. If you integrate the protection in to the rig, after the opening the protection will NOT sit at the place were it has to be in case of collision.

Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

BASE would not be what it is if we would not have nasty option called the tension knot. This crap can happen on every jump, even when the pack job is perfect or near to perfect.
This is why I like spectra lines...

Karina,
Last info about Karina i have heard was at NY time...that she is getting better, I really hope that is true

use protection if you feel better w it, but never forget that right decision is the best protection. that was all about i want to emphasize.
i am not using body armor but helmet always (did maybe 5 jumps without helmet in my entire BASE life) sometimes knee protection and good shoes too.
enjoy ws flying and play smart and long.

i said what you can read. nothing more or less. haven't been rude to you nor that was my intention. i don't see why you feel the need to replay in the way you did...

there is many ways to jump safe. if you feel better w protection - go for it. i never said you shouldn't. what i said is that some statements above are twisted and not really good sample why would be good to jump w protection.
at the end it is up to you.

what about AAD for base?

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But what if:
You hug the wall and pull away too late never achieving good separation?
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-If you worries about this than better avoid this wall and train till you get the performance and exit tuned 100%. the progress goes step by step and must be based on personal ability, not on a personal ''wish factor'' only!!

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You find you aren’t going to clear that ridge you aimed for; you pitch last second low over the trees?
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-Make decision on time is much smarter than thinking: ''I have protection so I can afford to go to the trees!!''
Pull sequence and ability to fly canopy while you are under the WS takes longer time than in ''normal'' suit.
never forget this.

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You try to prove you can out fly the fjord, the lake, the fence line (whatever), you never quit get to your breaks before you land?
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-Don't count on protection in this case, Honestly , One have better chances to fly over those ''aim line'' if one has no protection under the suit. No doubt that armor ad complexity and restrictions to body and mind.

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You leave the exit point in the wind and rain, get line twists on opening and that big grassy landing area turns into car sized rocks.
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-If the weather is crap ( esppecially if there is no visibility) - you do NOT jump. Do not count on protection there too.

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You leave the exit on a dark moonless night, all the better for hiding from rangers (and you mate hiked too slow)? You can end up with some interesting landing choices.
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-Plan your hike to be there on time , and also make option in case you got late - do not count that protection will save you, your maturity will if there is any left.

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There is one other big advantage to sizing your suit to fit your amour, on all the jumps you don’t take your amour, it fits your warm gear and rain gear. Jumping big wall that gear is very nice to have. I have seen it take 6 hours for people to come down off the top of Norwegian objects when the cloud and rain came in. If you are going to wing suit base even if you don’t want amour seriously size your suit with all you outdoor gear on.
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-I can write the book about this , and there will be 1000 different opinions anway, mostly it is personal choice , but basic is that each jumper must know what he has WS for! Fit of the suit is most important thing if the flyer has performance flying in mind.

-In short - Armor is good for those who like it. Knee pads always , helmet always, even on WS jumps this does not harm performance but the rest of the armor sure does!
My whole point is that above mentioned answer can clearly show that there is a more simple way to avoid trouble

''horizontal'' opening does NOT effect the heading performance Ryan. It is relative wind to the canopy so canopy has no clue that you ( maybe ) moving forward, canopy just feel the air.
W full armor your WS performance will be worse than without.

Bravo Valera!!!

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What will future FJC students at the Perrine think? Darn, I better not wear body armor, the old timers might make fun of me and think I use it to make up for my lack of skill.

Student will do and make what he will be told by his mentor or more experienced friend ( next to him person )-period.
Problem is that often, student is not guided nor told.
Problem is that they more and more see things and do things and also learn from the same kind of people.

In italy to start base takes 6 months.... USA, U.K. Russia?!
Dedications, love, passion to try and learn BASE - all this Italian student need to have. What it takes in USA, U.K. or Russia to make jump at FJC?!

Not saying that one way is better or worse ( who am I to say... ) just guessing why we have different mentality...

This deflector is still an issue.
On low angle of attack it has probably major roll and it helps a lot ( VKB cockroach suit )
On WS it is questionable how much effect the back deflector has.
Way to find out this is to experiment w it.
From my experience it helps and benefit of having it can be noticed only on performance jumps, were glide is the main and only goal.
If the suit is flown in dirty position the real help is gone because bit of forward movement is there due the air deflecting not lift generated.