robibird

Quote

It may be personal preference, but if 2 suits fly the same glide ratio, then the 'slower' one (giving you more airtime for the same trajectory) would be my choice.

Also in terms of BASE, being able to fly slower (at the same MAX glide) would seem like an advantage in terms of reaction time and enjoyment.

Though of course, if the added speed brings you added distance..than the 'faster' suit would also have my preference.

Jarno, with all the respect, but you definitely need LATEX on your suit to make you faster

Quote

Quote

That is a very narrow minded statement. The V suit lost last year to the M1.

Kris.

Wasn't that distance not speed?

Same difference .

If you don't understand read any of the plethora of posts by Yuri_base.

Kris

so, if WS jumper use about 1/3 of time less to get to the same point or futrher in the sky what then then the another WS jumper?!
Agree!
Read whatever post about the magic of flying w the nylon.

you are right - no progress has been made since 1920.
Although, can't really remember that there was some flying 10 years ago were guys & gals were covering some ground distance...
Must be that I don't get it what is progress all about

Quote

the pitch angle for best glide is below the horizon

wrong assumption. no suit fly below the horizon

Quote

If yes, what's the progress?

progress is that you most likely will not go in with now days wing suits , while back then I would be 100% certain that you will on very first jump!! Isn't this progress?!

Quote

What's your L/D in Stealth?

Yuri, L/D is different to every jumper /flyer regardless of the same suit they possibly wearing.... human is not rigid profile therefore experiment is way to go , way more than number guessing and dreaming...

Quote

Quote

back than wings were there to provide STABILITY and not the glide at all

But if YOU recreate Maussenna's suit today and YOU learn it as much as you know Stealth, will YOU glide significantly worse in it than in Stealth?

If not, why do you think so?

If yes, what's the progress?

What's your L/D in Stealth?

What would be your L/D in the 50 year old suit?

make one and check, don't forget heavy boots and basers front reserve... just to be accurate replica.

Quote

Does anyone have the book "Birdmen, Batmen, and
can we say that his L/D was probably close to L/D of the modern suits?
If not, why?
If yes, how much progress we made in 50 years since that photograph was taken? What exactly is that progress?

There is a thread were few Q were sent to you... about the progress..

next...
Listen, all those books u mentioning about WS and flying are the books about falling stable. back than wings were there to provide STABILITY and not the glide at all. The whole skydiving / parachuting was on so early stage that wings were there to help and nothing else than to help to FALL stable...
Read it again!

Regarding the numbers... at such altitude w such mix of wind speed all data falling in to ''may be '' cathegory as well as accuracy of the features and gadgets used...

Quote

[ Wing suiting is really nothing more than an assisted track.

really?! Than we are at the end of research here on this planet!

Yuri,

More and more you writing, I can't see nothing else than your pure lack of understanding of the WS in/and skydiving ( idea, realization, testing, implementation to market, responsibilities etc...)
Even more than that. I see that you are trapped in narrow frame of theory. Impressed by internet and endless brainstorming discussing way away from reality.
For any kind of development the TIME is the key. Step by step is the way. There is no GOD who KNOW ! Those who use the product learn from it, as well as those who make the product learn from it..
Among of many statement you place here, for which I think are pointless, I saw one which really hook my eye:
''We still haven't moved an inch since Patrick De Gayardon circa 1997. ''
Do you really think this?! Please explain that, or better what is the development in your opinion?!

The Shadow program is still on going thing were PF is working together with VKB gang.
As the season in Norway last about two weeks of course I can't be faster. Each of the top flyers there has different model of the suit. Which suit is going to be THE ONE is about to see.
Espen has the first model derivate of Phantom - he is very happy Problem w such suit is the testing. Speed and precision is the main thing. Without reference point test has no sense.
After the '08 season , I will be loaded w sufficient information to know what to do.
Hope that is enough info for now

I don't death grip and pull hard on my arm wings. I just hold the out there. The strain isn't from holding them taunt or down but from holding them forward into the on coming air.
I mind the curvature of my spine. I keep my knees straight and point my toes. The pitch down you must maintain is more pronounced than on any other suit I remember.

Correct!!

yuri, i did that. he can lose pilot chute for example...

Hi,
I strongly recommend not to put any kind of extensions on the V2.
If you do that, this will result with significant loss of performance. Also, PC pouch is at the sensitive place and messing around this place may give you trouble during pull...
V2 is specifically designed suit. It is very sensitive and require skill in order to get the performance out of it.
That suit flies and it is not made for half commitment. It is of course possible to flock w this suit too. It just need more work with body (hips) than legs (bend knees) If flock has no forward movement than leave the flock....
Let suit fly and try not to stretch the trailing edge of the arm wing ( classic mistake though which killing Vampire performance )
keep the speed...

Quote

So the thing I have a problem with is not the beginner wingsuiter on the M1, as long as he's stably on his belly.

Of course , the problem is how to be sure student is or will be stable. Bad idea would be to test that with the biggest suit you have in your demo bag.

Quote

It might actually be easier to keep that stable than a Classic.

assuming - ''Might be'' is very wrong way to go.

Quote

But when you're spinning on your back going through 1500' in a rising panic attack, what suit will be easier to fix the problem in? What suit will require less of a coordinated reaction going against inbuilt reflexes?

The smallest one.

Hi
First of all wish to everyone all the best in '08.
Let me say few thoughts I have regarding the big way record WS jump.

I think it is mandatory to drag in all experience which all participants may have, including the skill in any of skydiving discipline ( RW FF CRW )
Also, like in any skydive, we always have things and possible problems which require to be emphasized over and over. On WS big way formation, special attention should present too, because WS jump like big way is still new thing for all of us.
In my opinion The big way 70 way or so should be made completely different than this was the habit seen so far.
The point (base) should fly opposite from the flight path ( turning after exit 180 degr. jumping out already like diver) and keep that position.

Building formation this way is the most logical way.... every jumper / flyer following the one in front of him and getting the slot.
Separation is made by plane, picture every flyer would have is clear and full. There is no extra repositioning needed because the formation is stacked by it self too.
Heaving in mind that the formation will not really be example of how the WS flies , rather it will the example how it falls, the approach will be very similar to approach of any RW jumps. Vertical speed will be higher than horizontal - so no need to not to take engineering from RW dives.

Brake off
Same rule as big ways... should be organized in stages w the squadron ( row ) leaders who should be followed in very precise way ( altitude , level, separation )
There is no need to start to discovering the ''hot water'' here. Biggest problem might be how to ''kill'' the ego which were so well developed through the years of WS-ing, which is - ''I smoke youon the brake off''''

Last, but to me the very important issue is the qualification.
For this very jump there is no room to keep up with '' no birds left behind'' policy.
As those guys who were present on RW big ways knows, it is so ...Mistake = OUT!
Sorry, but that is the best motivation factor, most common and best self controlling tool known so far in human kind.
Therefore, guys, there should be no room for ego competition or improvisation of the rules at the spot.
If the leader screw up , he should admit it first , need to be example not the judge protected by self given title.

It is not hard, it is possible but it takes time and discipline.

wish to all ''BIRDS'' many nice flights, tight formtions and lets be the '08. the year of the ''legs stretched''
fly low - pull high and keep the speed
wish you very best 2008.
robibird

yuri, looks like it is fashion to believe in conspiracy, especially when you have no other prove than lame amater chit- chat stories.
it would be in the best soviet interest to prove the US conspiracy back then in '60s.

Quote

Imagination is more important than knowledge (Albert Einstein)

Quote

Imagination without knowledge = just imagination
Skyjester, trust me, you can have tons of imagination, but without at least 1% of understanding u would not move far in the field were Albert was expert.
even less than 0,0000002 % decent educated humans now days barely understand what Albert was about....

experiment:
u need two ( maybe three) friends
two 1.5 m long tables
emergency telephone

purpose:
To get the clue what will happen on WS landing even if all goes perfect. (landing without ''hook'' system)

execution:
connect two tables , lay on it w belly down were the tables are connected. put your hands on your back and tight them.
More or less u are 1 m away from the ground.

1.Close your eyes
2.Tell your friends to remove tables fast simultaneously.
3.Call hospital due serious injuries.

Philosophy!!!

PS Andreas, Mc Chicken - helps i guess, its very popular!!!

Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

philosophy didn't sent human to the moon. math and physics did maria. here many things are clear and known.
human already took off and lend using their own power. effort to make that was incredible and limits are well known.

excellent advice!

Guys,
If the goal is to make 71 -way, proposed way looks fragile.
I think that is not good to set the goal of doing the biggest WS formation than ever with such '' stretchy '' rules were everybody are welcome, and at the same time there will be strong rules set, but also all will be happy with decision organizers will make. That simply can't happen!!
There is two ways of doing such formations:
1. Skill building.
were people go to Z-hills F&D (or similar WS boogies ) were formation and skill building is and always going to be the only priority.
2. Record attempt.
were jumps should be organized seriously and mature.
Selection should be made so that formation is the only priority using the skill and experience of selected people, were the decision set by team captains will be executed w no mercy.

ASAP as rules for the WS record formation is announced, invitation, applying and hunting for the slot will/may start.
Idea how to organize is well known and can be clearly copied from RW big ways.
I have no doubt that many of the WS jumpers has respectful experience in big RW formation (and that is welcome and only can be good)

IMHO , it is wrong to organize the 71- way flock just to impress ourselves w the possible 71- way, knowing that we have lack of everything( skills, people, organizers,planes, etc )
Result of such can be disappointment of those jumpers who expected more than just fun and yeah , give me five ...
Better is to go ahead and make skill camps( few of them ) to see what realistically WS jumpers can do and than organize ''The Record WS formation'' with whatever the number can be.

Agree w Matt 100%

Jarno,
It does not fly at less glide nor it flies less or higher than optimal.
Effect what often help us , and why base flights looks better is mostly, equipment, thermal weather condition and dedication of the flier (ground feedback) That is all. This was, I thought so clear.

embarrassing is to see that people here, who has higher interest in flying than average jumper questioning such clear fact which saying: Air dents has nothing with glide...

.............it is embarrassing to see that after heaving the ram air technology over 30 years, that after heaving planes over 100 years, paragliders, hanggliders and kites above our heads over 20-30 years, that after heaving the access to almost any source and finally after hoping that basic is clear... it is embarrassing to even question such Q..