RogerRamjet

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Yup! You had a very good feel of your descent and forward speeds to do that stand-up flared landing. Some don't have that because of poor speeds and too much target fixation. I remember the old cheapo saying, "eyes at the horizon." :-)))

I had an air force pilot friend who jumped the squares, too. Red flew both the rotary and fixed wings by profession, but never had a good flared stand-up landing. He always was coming in too fast, and more often than not, landed, (i approximate, with 25% brakes) on his butt, like he was seated on his a/c pilot seat. I guess he was too conscious w/ his stall speed. Yes, I saw his stalls too before impact in some of his landings. Anyways, it has finally taken its toll. Today at 64 yrs old, he feels a lot of pain around his pelvis area, he says.

BTW, I like this quote: "Today, it's not so much getting the canopy to open as it is getting to the ground and landing it in one piece." Standing-up! Right you are...

Good Job, RamJet!

:-)

Thanks for the frame grab and the nice caption you put on it! I'm now 58 and other than great memories, have no left over issues from skydiving. Today, my sport is competitive water-skiing in the slalom event. You can see a shot of me in competition on this site: http://www.rclarks.freehomepage.com/photo.html

I don't know if I'll ever jump again. I have thought about it and have a standing offer from a friend that still jumps for a free re-cert jump in Deland, so still a possibility.

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Hi Roger,

Thanks for the very technical narrative of the square chute deployment system. As I was reading your description, it was like traveling back in time. Every step I could visualize with ease, including that of the old para-plane. My para-plane had lots of line burns compared to that of the *Star. What a great improvement in technology for a new era. Thank you again for the fond memories...

We did not have the luxury to get back to the factory at that time. I guess we were half a world away; so we had to rely on gut-feel. We did not have the internet then. GREAT!

By the way, I saw your stand-up landing. I can still remember doing some of those, too! :-))) I always loved playing around the toggle lines (brakes) between 33% to 50% and the final flair at 75% to 85%; till a feather type touchdown. Controls were not too heavy. Back then, I didn't realize that the steering lines could break. Glad that it never did...OK!

I'm attaching pictures of your nice landing... I hope you like them.

Regards,

Chito

P.S. when I get back to So. Pasadena, Ca. this September 2011, I will go to some nearby drop zone and see for myself how they do it nowadays... Who knows... I might do a jump or two? :-)))

Thanks! I just found I was in this video when someone posted it here recently.

Landing my Strato-Star: As you can see from the video, I was very good at doing a full flare at the correct altitude. If you watch, one of the next Strato-Star landings on the video they guy really flares too low and too fast. Even though he stands up, it is not near the light landing he could have had if flaring correctly. I still see this problem today. For me, if there was no wind, I stood up with both feet pretty easily. If there was 3mph or better, I could one foot stand up. I don't remember ever not standing it up. When I reached the magic jump number at Z-Hills that allowed you to jump a square (100), I found someone willing to lend me their Para-Plane and proceeded to jump it, then an original Foil, an original Sled, and the Para-Cloud. For some reason I had a natural feel for them and stood them all up easily. Before getting the "Ramjet" nickname from Roger Nelson, I was sometimes called Roger Ramair because I was always jumping one of those dangerous square canopies. Interestingly, I never had a malfunction on a square even with the weird reefing systems of the day. I was told that 1 in 10 jumps resulted in a reserve ride when I started jumping them; but I believe it wasn't quite that bad though I certainly saw some cutaways from them.

Today, it's not so much getting the canopy to open as it is getting to the ground and landing it in one piece.

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That's a great video of some safe landings, Roge.. but.. er... you were short 1 guy on your RW there !!

Hmmm, that's confusing to me as I am not in any of the RW shots in that film (as far as I have been able to determine)...

You can see me land my Strato-Star at the 5 minute mark in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei-tdClLaEE

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Spring 1973. Used 28' and 32' rounds with double L mods. Couple of the 'experienced' club members had PC's or Paps. Bought a PC of my own the following year. (About 25 jumps I think). We heard about squares but were told you couldn't/shouldn't take them to terminal. There were some other less well known chutes around, but all I recall now were the T-bow,, a Delta II and a thing called a Paradactyl. Strange looking thing that wouldn't slow down at all.

Dactyls could be landed softly with some practice, check out Bobby Gray landing his at just after the 5 minute mark in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei-tdClLaEE

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here's the picture of the "(rings not seen) & ropes" and the old ripcord system on a low altitude, jump and pull from a UH-H. The old ropes did show attached to the old spring type pilot chute.

:-)

Very nice. Yes, the original setup came with it's own deployment bag, rings on the bottom of the canopy, and the reefing rope passed through all the rings and then ran up through the center of the canopy (there was a cotton square of material there with grommets for the lines to prevent burning of the bottom and top surfaces of the canopy) and attached typically to a MA-1 pilot chute. When you deployed, something like 30 feet of reefing line stowed on the bag left first, followed by the bag. Then the suspension lines, also stowed on the bag would deploy. Bag comes off next. Then as the canopy tries to inflate, it has to pull all that reefing line with the drag of the pilot chute down through those grommets. This was so much more effective than the old rings on top (Para-Plane) that opening went from firm (or brutal) to super soft and there was no longer a need to reef the bag differently for sub-terminal vs. terminal opening. It was the beginning of a new era. The introduction of the slider about a year later cemented the end of the round era as it made square reserves possible and made openings even more reliable and predictable.

When Bill Booth and I went to pack the thing for the first time, we had to call the factory as the instructions they sent were hand written and not very clear. I never had a problem with that canopy and would not hesitate to jump one today

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Hi Roger,

Let me qualify these three malfunctions. The first was my fault. Rigging error. I had the bad habit to detaching the capewells after each and every jump, so i could fold the *Star faster for the next jump; aircraft fuel was so expensive back then. :-( The left capewell was not seated well; yet the cover closed somehow; and popped out during deployment; ...streamer; cutaway; and the reserve.

The 2nd was when a friend and i were still learning RW on our own. Rene hit the right corner of the *Star canopy and collapsed it by 50% on a low-opening. Right toggle popped out, and got entangled with the right riser; difficult to untangle; violent downward spiral; too low to recover; so decided to cutaway and use the reserve. All these under 20 jumps of the new *Star.

The 3rd was the same as the 1st, haste on the capewell again, but this time still young and foolhardy, i did not rig my own, but by our designated rigger during a demo jump.

The new *Star rings, ropes, and new slider system came much later; after a hundred jumps with the unmodified- long lines. We shortened the lines, installed the new pilot chute pocket on the harness; all these by our rigger, at a much later date. After the latest modifications, we did not have any problems ever since. Logged 900+ jumps thereafter.

I was also able to jump the seven-cell *Cloud for about 100+ jumps; but felt it was too big and turned too flat for me. The *Star was more agile, fast and highly maneuverable. Somehow, I got attached to the *Star, a lot, till I was reassigned, stopped jumping and got married. But I think I can still jump, and absorb the opening shock given a chance again. Who knows, one of these days, again. Thanks for the inquiry and comments, Roger.


Chito Kintanar
Philippine Islands

Thanks for explaining

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The new *Star rings, ropes, and new slider system came much later

Not sure what you mean by that comment. The Strato-Star was introduced with rings and ropes. It had the rings on the bottom surface unlike the previous Para-Plane and Para-Cloud and opened incredibly soft (and reliably). When the slider was (re) introduced, it made the openings more similar to a Paracommander and of course kept the reliability (probably increasing it). I had the first Strato-Star sold in Florida as I was working for Bill Booth at the time and he had pre-ordered it for another Miami jumper who couldn't come up with the funds when it arrived, so I took it since I had just blown up my C9 cheapo the previous weekend (line over). The rest was history for me; I loved that canopy.

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This is ancient...; but jumped the TU, ParaCommander, the Strato Star and the Strato Cloud. The Strato Star was my favorite ram-air.

I had 3 cutaways with the Strato Star and have survived to contribute this note. The ParaCommander was memorable too, because i broke a right fibula with it on my 33rd jump.

The hardest to fly was the ParaPlane. Opening shocks can definitely give one a stick neck.

I had very fond memories skydiving. Do they still have in their 60s jumping these days? I would like to get back before turning 70. hehehehe... Thanks for the bandwidth, guys...

Chito Kintanar
Philippine Islands

Three cutaways from Strato-Stars??? Why? I put 650 jumps on mine, about 150 on the rings and ropes and the rest on a slider. Also shortlined it 6 feet. It never even hinted at malfunctioning. I always felt a properly tuned, properly packed, slider equipped Strato-Star was about as reliable as a canopy that ever existed (probably still true).

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Hi everyone!

I have been having a mid-life crisis recently (just turned 52) and, naturally, in an attempt to reclaim lost youth have been thinking about the things I used to do when I was in my 20's. That's how I happened to stumble upon your great website.

I made my first jump in 1978 with a high school friend after we met Herb Graves Jr. at an air show in Lafayette, La.

We jumped together for the next 3 to 4 years and I ended up making 32 jumps. I stopped after I entered college and never made another jump. My friend went on and made many more jumps.

I was wondering is Herb Graves Jr. is still around...anyone know?

Thanks...and everyone have a great day!
Jazzman

A quick search of the site reveals he is mentioned in 1 thread (other than this one): http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1469321;search_string=Herb%20Graves;#1469321

Not any help in finding him, but perhaps someone will know and help out here.

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DON'T jump it if there's much turbulence in the air, those canopies are somewhat sensitive to turbulent air and will sometimes collapse and drop you in from 60 feet or so.

I never heard that before; in fact I believe the Strato-Flyer became the first square reserve. They were d-bag deployed originally, but of course a lot of people got into the free packing thing (not me). I have a hand full of jumps on one and stood it up every time (135lbs) though not as easily as my Strato-Star.

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@ RogerRamjet: To be honest, I'm not sure if there is a hanging harness there or not? I'll have to find out. But, you're right, that's exactly what the issue was, the handles were much farther up, than they are when I'm on the ground. I guess that's pretty much common sense though, so it probably should have crossed my mind at some point, huh?

A lot of survival in this sport is "common sense." Keep thinking and keep learning; no one knows it all...

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Hello All,

...

I went through the steps that I was taught: 1) Look for my cutaway handle, and place my hand on it, 2) Locate my reserve handle, and put my hand on it, 3) Arch, pull the cutaway, then the reserve. I had trouble finding the cutaway handle though, for a couple of reasons. First, I was wearing a red jumpsuit, which was the same color as the cutaway handle, and secondly, the handle was higher up than it was while I was practicing, since the main chute was partially open.

...

Was all your practice just standing in your rig? Do you have access to a hanging harness? Handles can move several inches from their normal position once you're suspended under a canopy.

All in all, sounds like you handled the situation well to me

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Did the "three" ever fly jumpers with the cargo door off? If so I would be most grateful for a picture that shows floaters in place. Thanks, David.

There was a C-47 at the Hills for a while in the mid '70s that flew with both doors off, Only did it for a week or 2 because of the buffeting, wieght and balance and with the rear door off, people were comming really close to the horizontal stabilizer. But the palne empyed almost as fast as tailgate.
Even with the rear door on the space of the front door was very tall. A center floater holding the top of the door would be a foot or 2 inside the plane unless he was very, very tall.

Yes, sometime in 73 we took both sets of doors off for a few loads. I remember 8 across exits. However, the pilots felt that plane was just not stable enough and the buffeting was bad enough that they thought structural damage might occur over time, so we stopped doing it. I don't remember the horizontal stabilizer being an issue, but I was 20 then...

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Unrelated but one of my favorite photos nonetheless. A passenger window was missing over the wing and the photographer leaned out to get this shot of me exiting the DC-3 at Zephyrhills sometime around 1973.

It was missing? I remember you could open (I think 2 of them) and I took photos similar to yours that way. I don't remember one ever being missing though.

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Made 1 jump on a friends sometime in the mid 70's. Spun me so hard I got dizzy while it opened.

I though they had a split tail which was the culprit and heard that some jumpers had it sewn together to eliminate many of its problems.

Was it at Z-Hills? I jumped one there, but can't remember who's it was. I didn't have the spinning opening though I saw plenty of sleds spin on opening. The one I jumped had the split tail and seemed to fly very nice; easy stand up landing. I jumped all the squares I could find at Z-Hills in '73, a Sled, a Foil, Para Plane, Cloud and never had a mal though everyone said I probably would. Eventually the Strato Star came out and then the slider and square mals pretty much went away (thankfully).

I just hooked up with Kathi Embrey on Facebook. She is living in Park City, Utah and is doing fine. One of the prettiest woman I've ever met and just as nice too!

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Pretty cool didn't know it was you.Those were some amazing times.

Yeah, it's me doing a 1 foot standup. I did tons of them and find it really funny when current jumpers talk about how bad those canopies were. 650 Strato-Star jumps, no mals, no bad landings and I could land in a 2 foot box every time. Modern canopies may be faster, but when I visited Z-Hills and Deland recently, I saw no 1 foot landings, almost no simple standup landings. Most were running or at least several steps to stop. And the openings... my Strato-Star with slider opened in the same time as the old Paracommander or cheapo would open, some of the openings I watched took several hundreds of feet and speaking with some of the jumpers, the "snivel" time was not consistent on each jump. If I were to get back in now, I would look for a canopy that opened and landed more like what I had back then if there is such a thing.

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Using a dactyl is like riding an old Harley.It rides rough opens hard lands hard but it has style.I bought mine new in about 1980

But used properly, seemed to land very nicely (at least with you at the controls). My landing on my yellow and black Strato-Star is at about the 5:00 mark and your Dactyl landing starts about 5:06 in the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei-tdClLaEE

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TJ went in at Z-Hills when George and Betty Kabeller ran the place. He had dumped a bit low and had a fast malfunction. Unfortunately, he played with it for too long. He finally chopped but he was too low. He went in with his reserve only part way through the deployment sequence. I wasn't there but got the details from a reliable jumper. It was a shock to all who knew him.

Do you know approx what year that was? I was unaware that they ran Z-Hills at any time...

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I'd have to take credit for the "education" of Bill Burr, Moriarity as we knew him, He had been at the DZ for some time doing his first static lines and jump/pulls and was hanging around the loft after most had left for the Wolverine.
He kind of hesitated and shyly asked if I could get him stoned for the first time....we did, had a smoke and iI finished up packing and we went to the Wolverine, he took off in front of me but had said a few minutes earlier that he didn't feel anything....
About half a mile from the packing shed, Bill in front, pulled up to a stop sign and sat there. After a few minutes I wondered why he didn't move and so got out of my truck to see if he was alright....he was...and totally wasted....when I asked him if he was okay, he just shook his head and said something like Wow man, this is sooo cool....
I had him follow me to the Wolverine and the rest is history.
Bill was a good friend over many years and it was sad to see him go, he will always be remembered.

I didn't drink or smoke, but when we went up to the Valley View bar/restaurant, I would always ride with the smokers because they could still drive (mostly). I remember riding with Dan Steger one night and talking about why I rode with the smokers and I said they could still drive though they were still affected. He asked what I meant saying he drove fine while stoned. I said, well, the speed limit here is 45 and you're going 23...

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just got home and checked my logbook;
december 1968
signed off by:
pop (?) d-47, john coppe (?) d265, bill burr c-5961, ed darey(?) d-241.

See attached photos taken at Indiantown. First is of Bill Burr (in white) and myself. Second is Ed Dorey who died in a plane crash.

There's also a shot of Pop's Howard.

When is this site going to allow us to embed photos???

I believe Bill (Moriarty) Burr was killed in Hawaii in a plane crash while on the way to a demo. When he was jumping at Z-Hills, I lined up behind him on a big way one day and had to take a 2nd look at his piggy back reserve flap. It had a warning sticker on it that read "WARNING - EXPLOSIVE CUTTERS INSTALLED." He would sometimes adjust jumpers spines for them as his brother Robert is a chiropractor. I like that photo too Pat; I never knew Bill with short hair...

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eply]

Also in the spring of '74, Himalayan Rope (sp) stared jumping at DeLand, I seem to remember a Twin Beech but both brain cells may not be co-operating with each other.

I was a member of the Himalayan Rope (Tony Patterson, Steve Fugleberg, Jay Boynton, Dan Steger, Larry Gossler, Helen Frazer, Mike Branch, Steve Noonan, Bobby Wilson, and one I cannot remember. Twin Beach was flown from Atlanta each weekend. Twin Beaches were used for the '74 ten man event.. Not ten WAY!!!

Wow! All those names in the line up really bring flashbacks. I seem to remember Steve Noonan in the door as a floater? Or maybe he was being pinned by Larry Gossler for the base. Dan Steger was the coolest Naval Aviator I have ever met. When he left the Navy no one would ever know he had ever been in the military. I remember he had this squinty eyed smile that lit up the whole area. Last I heard, he was living in St. Augustine but that was over 20 years ago.

Dan is still there. And yes, the coolest Navel Aviator I've ever met too. Dan Steger story... I was a pretty bad student while on static line doing back flips, front flips, etc. The standard exit from the 182 with step at Z-Hills was being taught as trail a foot, kick up and push off. I was either kicking too much and pushing to a front flip or not enough and pushing to a back flip. Dan took me up for my 8th and 9th static lines. Before going up he asked what trouble I was having. After hearing the procedure, he said, why don't you trail the outside foot as before, but instead of kicking up and pushing off, just do a little side hop? This was too easy and I was cleared for freefall after the 9th static line. I spoke with and demonstrated my new found method to Jim Hooper and Jeff Searles and to their credit, they altered the training to the hop to the side method.

I also loved his animated style. One day he had a mal on his cheapo and started screaming "cutaway, cutaway" before he actually cutaway. I styled my cheapo after his adding pull down center lines to my 7TU. Luckily, my cheapo blew up with a may west at about 350 jumps and I "was forced" to buy a new Strato Star

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

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What exactly is a thru-loop? Is this the same as the regular pin setup? Is it the same as a thru-loop i've heard of for base containers?

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I remember having one of the first wonderhog. Had the plastic ripcord that would break if it got nicked. I think before the 3 rings were out. I remember buchman trying the wrap which was on both eagles that I owned. I never had to try them out. So anyway, I'm not 100% sure which was first... Just going by my history..

In the spring of '74, Gary, Jaybo, Bob Favreau, and Brent McClarty brought Mr. Douglas to DeLand and strarted working on it to be a jump plane. Bill Booth brought a rig he had built. It was a back rig with a wrap-around pilot chute released by a "plastic coated" ripcord. It was thin. With that and a poptop a jumper would be thinner (front-to-back) that with a Security piggy back. A few weeks later Bill showed up with a piggyback version. I think it had the thru loop comming from the reserve pack tray. That idea, of the pin flaps being pulled toward the pack tray, was the begining of the end of the rigs that resembled a refridgerator. As far as Buchman's rig, Mike Ladd had the first one I saw. A nice piece of equipment but I don't remember if it was that year or the year after.

Also in the spring of '74, Himalayan Rope (sp) stared jumping at DeLand, I seem to remember a Twin Beech but both brain cells may not be co-operating with each other.

The "through loop" used on both the Wonderhog and the Eagle rigs was simply that the loops holding the 2-pin reserve containers closed were one continuous piece run through the bottom of the container in such a way that even if just one of the two pins cleared, the loop could flow through the back releasing the reserve pilot chute.

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I remember having one of the first wonderhog. Had the plastic ripcord that would break if it got nicked. I think before the 3 rings were out. I remember buchman trying the wrap which was on both eagles that I owned. I never had to try them out. So anyway, I'm not 100% sure which was first... Just going by my history..

In the spring of '74, Gary, Jaybo, Bob Favreau, and Brent McClarty brought Mr. Douglas to DeLand and strarted working on it to be a jump plane. Bill Booth brought a rig he had built. It was a back rig with a wrap-around pilot chute released by a "plastic coated" ripcord. It was thin. With that and a poptop a jumper would be thinner (front-to-back) that with a Security piggy back. A few weeks later Bill showed up with a piggyback version. I think it had the thru loop comming from the reserve pack tray. That idea, of the pin flaps being pulled toward the pack tray, was the begining of the end of the rigs that resembled a refridgerator. As far as Buchman's rig, Mike Ladd had the first one I saw. A nice piece of equipment but I don't remember if it was that year or the year after.

Also in the spring of '74, Himalayan Rope (sp) stared jumping at DeLand, I seem to remember a Twin Beech but both brain cells may not be co-operating with each other.

I was there the weekend Bill showed up with the piggyback version. He said he was looking for someone to build them for him and I moved to Miami the next weekend. The rest is history as they say...

If Frank Pate (or anyone else) wants to look up their SCR, they can find it at Bill Newell's site:

http://www.starcrestawards.com/

Frank Pate: SCR 1925, SCS 586