chutejump

I agree with the basis of your statement but not the reality of it, I don't believe that many DZOs whom run less than stellar operations cut corners to make an extra buck! I think it is mostly done as an effort to stay in operation, the margin for possible profit is very small, rub this against the increasing requirements, costs of operation, and expected and requested services from customers, this creates a big problem when paying the bills! People always forget that "Increses in operation", "Increases in staff", increases in anything comes out of the same pocket the profit of the operation, if this is minimal or nonexistant, coners will be cut! If jumpers and potential students would not support them, they will go away, and I have very little faith in any government backed and supported program creating anything other than more confusion. Agreeded! Well Yes! If you are ethical in your feelings about getting caught, the system of today will allow you to place an attorney on retainer, he will write a few letters, and he can hold any action at bay for an extended amont of time, and the reality of being caught dirty is that you may die of old age before the government gets around to doing anything about it! NO! it should be addressed! But what I am saying is that "WE" allow this problem to exist by our support of these people, "WE" can solve this problem with out intervention from the government. Money (or the lack of) has created and fosters this situation, regulation does not effectively address money concerns, But close down the bank! and the problem is solved! As I have said before "Buyer Beware!" .

My belief is that whether DZOs want to hear it or not, safety, above costs and all else should be held paramount. If it costs $400 to do a tandem skydive because collectively as an industry that is what is needed to make it safe from these types of problems, my guess is that most tandems (being they jump once and don't come back) will just have to save a little more money to get the experience; just like nowadays, when you or I want to travel by air, we now have to save extra that we didn't use to have to for things like checking a bag or two on, fuel costs and any other costs or surcharges that are successfully passed down to the consumer. Will sales hurt? Initially yes, mainly because skydiving is not a necessity like air travel might be for business and such. But for as long as people want to do it and there is a calling for it, business will continue to thrive. Initially DZOs may sustain some blunt force trauma to their pocketbooks and that sucks if they aren't able to stay afloat. Hopefully though, in the end, the shoddy outfits will not exist because they won't be able to afford to make their DZ safe, leaving the business to the surviving DZs who can can show a pattern of real safety. Those DZs with the demand for the sport can then pass their incurred costs to the consumer as well. I am sure the financial impacts may be more complex and severe than I have illustrated above and each DZ and situation is different but I can assure you when these kinds of tragedies happen, it is not good. As usual the burden is placed upon the persons least responsible. Many DZs do comply and spend the necessary time and money to meet the required standards, it is the few whom do not that create and support the problem, this problem is perpetuated by the support of the student public and their local jumpers, If you want to see safety and change, don't jump at these locations, stop sending your friends to train, you can be much more effective by withholding your cash than the government can be with increased survaillance. I heard people state! Well I didn't know there was a problem? I'am sorry this is a poor excise and not a reason, if you wish to play the game of risk, you are foolish if you do not arm yourself with knowledge before you walk into the fray! And no it is not USPAs responsibility or the DZs to force you to exersice some common scense! . .

There is much more to turbine engine operation than what is being discussed here, A Turbine is in reality a heat pump, this pump is effect by ambient temperature and density altitude, If you take most Pratt & Whitney engines with the times that were given by the NTSB, and if they are in need of a hot section or past hot section inspection times, than throw in a hot July day (density altitude off the chart and high temperature) these engines will not make full engine power setting % on the ground in static operation. This aircraft might possibly could not have been able to maintain level flight even with a lightly loaded plane in a single engine situation, this would leave no option B for the pilot, he was looking for a place to set down. Yes! a pilot should follow all emergency proceedure when dealing with a failure, but to keep the aircraft in the air, requires that the palne is still capable of maintaining flight with what is left after the problem is recognized. .

QuoteFYI: http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2008/080911.html snippets: *** Washington, DC -- The National Transportation Safety Board will hold a public Board meeting on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 at 9:30 a.m., in its Board Room and Conference Center, 429 L'Enfant Plaza, SW, Washington, DC. * Special Investigation Report - Safety of Parachute Jump Operations. The Special Report examines accidents that highlight systemic safety issues within the jump operations industry. Media Contact: Keith Holloway * Aviation Report - On July 29, 2006, a de Havilland DHC-6-100, N203E, operated by Skydive Quantum Leap as a parachute operations flight, crash after takeoff from Sullivan Regional Airport, near Sullivan, Missouri. The pilot and five parachutists were killed. Two parachutists were seriously injured. Media Contact: Terry Williams *** In case you don't know there have been several aircraft issues here in the midwest in the last few years to include the above accident. I have heard rumblings with contact to the local FSDO of possible inspections or other activities to address concerns with aircraft maintanence and operation. This media event just may be the NTSB's position, and the opening shot, of the blitz to curtail or control the future of aircraft operation in the use of sport skydiving (requiring Part 135 operations on Turbine Aircraft). As I understand you can view the event via the internet, through the NTSB website. .

Hummmnn? I guess my question is what is it that empowers experienced jumpers to a position, where they should expect service at a bare minimum cost which allows for minimal or no profit to the operation? The choice of spending far more than they earn at the DZ is a personal decision and in no way is to become the responsibility of the DZO, or create a cause for cheap or non profit service! Well that water can run both ways! Jumpers can expect whatever they like. Nothing is "owed" them to offer them jumps at bare minimum cost! If these persons whom provide this living and jumps have existing resources that allow for them to provide the service and live without relying on the business to profit, than more power to them! "But" that type of operation is the exception and not the norm in the rest of the real world. I agree! If I was allowed some time to have a life, a minimal amout of cash, and some opportunities to enjoy things that are important in my life other than operating a DZ, I would be quite happy! So it is the general opinion that if you operate a DZ and are not happy to offer experienced jumpers service at cost with very little or no profit, than many jumpers feel you should sell cars to make a living? If I recall I made the statement earlier, that "we have found the problem and it is US" your approach to this resonable request is exactly the mentality that creates the discord that exists between DZOs and experienced jumpers. This type of approach to the problem will always cause continuing problems and degradation of the sport. .

That has now and will always be the privilage of any and all jumpers! Most Staff jumpers I know feel the same as you, and to that I agree! It is a very different circumstance if you are the DZO with the investment and financial responsibility! Again your situation and requirements to survive and pay bills are totally different than mine or many DZOs This IS our living! So you are saying that it is (in your opinion) the norm for experienced jumpers to not show a profit? and that DZOs should not expect to make money operating a Skydiving facility providing service for them? Again is it not a resonable expectation of a business owner to make a profit for a service that they provide? If the job you have now said to you tomorrow that they were going to cut your wages by 1/3 and that you will be expected to perform the same amount of work, Would you not be very unhappy? Would you stay at this position? I think not! .

Besides the good things tandem jumping brought along it also allowed a period of every man a DZO. In the old days anyone could open a DZ, and right away you'd get all the grounded and disgruntled jumpers from other DZs, but you'd still have to struggle for ten years to become established and most start up DZ didn't make it at all. Tandem changed all that and a bunch of people became DZOs to cash in. Now there are so many of you guys you're eating each other alive and operating on razor thin margins. If you don't have deep regard for the sport, and I mean it's your life and you totally know there's nothing more you'd rather do, then do the sport a favor and go sell used cars. You'll make more money, have less headaches, and for most of you it was your passed over calling. Most of us skydiving professionals, instructors, riggers, and pilots, never made a dime in skydiving, except for eating money once in a while. Why should you prima donnas be any different? And while its natural to look back once in a blue moon and wonder what if, most pros I know wouldn't trade away their lifetime of fun and great friendships for anything. All we need is one good DZ in every major city. Then they'd all get enough business to run first class operations. Some of you parasites, especially the ones who begrudgingly allow up-jumpers, but are teetering on the edge of being tandem mills need to close the doors and go home. Money, money money, boo-hoo for you . . .*** Again I agree! But like it or not, a Drop Zone is a business, and all businesses must make a profit! If it were not to make a profit it would be called a Hobby! Know of anyone making a living from a Hobby? .

*** Answer! "The bank demands it" Question? You wanna buy a DZ and get rich? Give me a call! 10.5 months of the year 12 to 14 hours a day, earning a wage that is less than the current US minimum will make you "Need a brake to recharge" very quickly! If I were the CEO of a large company and was putting in the same amount of time, effort, and assuming the same risk, I would be bankrolling millions a year! "The unappreciated few! DZOs" .

And while I"am on the soap box! Im gonna bitch some more! If you as an experienced jumper "Know" that there is little or no profit in the service you require, would it not be prudent or an exercise of common sense to minimize the problems associated with your requirements? It is the old "we have identified the enemy and it is US! syndrome!" Tandem customers don't have to make a jump! They do it to fufill a goal or answer a question for themselves. Student jumpers don't have to make a jump they do so to possibly, or maybe in the future be allowed to jump with a friend or with out instruction. So if the sport were to die, or there were less DZ's than the effect on these type of jumpers would be minimal Experienced jumpers are the exception, they spend the entire week, working for the opportunity to get to the DZ and make some jumps. Than why if they are the the group whom needs for the sport to survive the most, do a few of them do everything possible to derail the process? I don't know how you operate in your world but in mine if there is something, or an activity that I hold near and dear I will do everything possible to nurture and protect it! If it costs more I pay, if it needs outside support, I go out of my way with no plans for reinbursement, if my demands are more than can be supported than I forget them, I attempt to minimize any difficulity that may be associated with my pursuence of the activity! It is very important to me for this to continue so I can enjoy it! Experienced jumpers would do themselves a great service if they were to pay a fair amount with a profit for jumps, Complain to some one whom is causing their problems (this person is always found in the refection in the bathroom mirror) Understand that everyone is attempting to use the aircraft at exactly the same time, and understand thay they will return when many of the other person there that day will not! and become supports and providers for the sport and not the profitless burden that they can sometime be! .

We will agree to disagree! Business is very difficult, and if I can find away to reduce or eliminate, customers whom bitch and complain, return gear purchased, argue about safety rules, demand better facilities, etc. and that I make less dollars per jump, keep the aircraft run out with no profit to repair. Than like any business person I will choose to support activities that profit and improve business. Fun jumpers have value as, possible staff, JMs, Instructors, TMs etc. I will call Bullshit on that fun jumpers bring friends to do tandems, talk people into becoming students, and will buy you a beer or two at the end of the day. They don't want other jumping it cuts into "Their" use of the A/C, they will only bring out friends to do Tandems, (than ask for a friend discount) or talk them into becoming a student if it somehow benefits them, (or they get paid for doing the obvious) and if you want a beer at the end of the day it is alway there as long as you the DZO pony up and buy! with all of the profit you made from them during the day!\ .

There is only one reason why I believe Gemini to be incorrect! 30 years experience as a DZO! I have owned and operated many forms of aircraft during that time, single and twin piston, single and twin turbine, to provide lifts to any and all types of jumpers. I will say that if a DZ were forced to operate on only the profit produced from lifts of the experienced jumpers that most would be forced to close in an very short time! I'am assured the response would be "well that is only 1/3 of the total brought in as Gemini pointed out" "Question!" Than how can a DZ continue to operate and produce profit without the experienced jumpers? even if only using the profit from Student training or from Tandem individually but not necessarly both? "Answer" the profit (if any) is so small from the experienced jumpers that the service cannot and will not support itself without Students or Tandems to cover the costs. "Bullshit you say?" Than find me a Club that does not provide Student training or Tandems! "Reason" they find out very quickly that what they pay will not support the DZ and activity alone! Profit must be made! Basic Business 101! It is the 3 legged stool theory, each leg must support its own weight, for the activity to stay stable, unfortunately in skydiving the stool has one very short leg!

I call bullshit again! We've discussed this before. The dz gets $200 for a tandem in a year and $1000+ from the fun jumper over the year. Even at a lower profit margin on the fun jumps he makes more money off the fun jumper over a year than any tandem. If he doesn't, he isn't a very good businessman. DZ's traditionally get 1/3 of their total revenue from tandems, 1/3 from students, and 1/3 from fun jumpers. Who would give up 2/3's of their revenue to only do fun jumpers. Thank You! Everytime I start to believe that the average experienced jumper starts to understand that they pay only what the cost is to provide them service, someone like you comes along and brings me back to the reality! THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE!

Lets face the facts! There is no profit in providing jumps to experienced jumpers! None, Nada, Period! All of the DZOs that I know (to include myself) cannot afford the loss incurred when you use the convience (to yourself) of a credit card! It takes a brake even operation, and truns it into a loss (for thr DZ) so you can be less responsible with form of payment! I believe that all would agree that you must at least pay the amount that is needed to cover the service you wish to purchase, if this is also the convience of paying with a CC than you should pay for the service!

You have answered your own question! He use to weigh 210! now he weighs 165! The angel of death has been takin care of business for some time! He is just not getting the quick out or luxury of a fast demise! We old fuckers don't miss things "and" we always pay our debts!

QuoteIt is a dubious question really. You see, Tom is an expert machinist, savant, who actually succeeded in machining and replacing all of his body parts back in the industrial revolution and swapped out his blood with a curious mixture of scotch and antifreeze. So, he has hasn't been human for a couple centuries, or rather organic. The question of his birth is also in question since most would agree he is of demonic origin. Demon's, being supernatural, originally existed outside of the arch of time. However, there are widespread accounts of Tom's emergence on this plane of existence from midevil times. As the tale goes, the Devil caught Tom in bed with his wife and daughter, one on each fist. Tom remarked to the devil "You are in time for the matinee, watch these bitches talk". Enraged by the ladies' moans of pleasure, the devil shot fire at Tom who quickly grabbed the bed sheet at all four corners (yes, Tom has opposable toes which he keeps hidden from mortals, another clue to his demonic origin and the devil's bed sheets are known throughout hell for their fire retardant properties) and road the swell of the devils breath up to earth. Today he still walks among us and mocks the devil by shaking both fists at him and manipulating the weak better than he can... Well that explains alot for me! Hell! when I had that bad dream, I thorught it was from all the Beer, Crown Royal, and Mexican food from the night before!! Whewu! Devil and Demon stuff? Hummmm? Come to think of it maybe it "Was" the Mexican Food! Still feeling the hot breath of Satin on my ass this morning!

Dude - you don't understand. Let me put it this way. Once death came for old Man Tom Dolphin, and Tom Round-house kicked death in the face so hard that death swore that day he would never take Tom Dolphin. Ever. "DEATH" HA! Death is way overrated! In fact I can say from personal experience! Death is a PUSSY!

"I am not old"!!! Just because I started jumping when dirt was white and rocks were soft! Doesn't make me old!!! The dare with Tiny was later on in life, I got my start assisting Napoleon in Europe with battle plans, until he got the stupid Idea of the march to Russia through the snow! Dumb Ass! Did I hear mention that some of you fuckers have in your possession some jump tickets? Ok! OK! don't make me hurt you! Just hand them over before the old guy gets PISSED!!! or i send my second in command the "Grim Reaper" to do my light work!!! "Old age and treachery will always overcome Youth and enthusiasm "

"THANK YOU"! No truer words have been spoken in some time. The powers that be, want the unknowing, untrained mass to believe that "all is well" in OZ. I personally think of it as the "Microwave generation" mentality They put in what they want push the button and 30 seconds later "Ping" They seem to approach life in that manner, everything quick and easy. Hard to find anyone whom wants to put in the time, effort, and cost, to really "Master" an activity, it seems they find it much easier to, "Dress and Talk" the part, But when it comes to the nut cuttin, they can't walk the walk. I see a lot of people whom come to the DZ these days that are "Jumpers", but I don't see many "Skydivers" anymore!

then you have to use your fists every other day - cause there are tons of people who "jepordize" your life on your way to work, on your way to the dz etc Yes! On some days I find the need to brake more jaws than others, Kind of look at it as an entertaining past time. a classic line suited perfectly for speakers corner If speakers conrner lines was applied to the threads on Safety and Training more often, we might see less fuckups! Bottom line no one was injured! I think everyone has a new understanding and repect for the TM and Pilot position. We should see less or none of these types of concerns in the future!!!

In our current society we have fallen into a pattern of refusal in many cases to accept responsibility for our actions. It appears to become easier to remove or minimize blame with involvement of other actions or persons. Every person on every lift has a spacific job to perform and responsibilites to all others involved. Do we make mistakes, or poor decisions in judgement? Yes it starts every day when we rise from sleep, The difference as people than only exists in how we as individules except responsibility for these actions. Unfortunately I read on these threads, how blame and responsibility, for poor decisions, is constnatly skillfully manipulated to devert blame and distort the truth of responsibility. Also it is equally easy to see others chime in on the side of distortion in an effort to make themselves feel less responsible for the same actions taken by themselves in prior events. You want my help? You want my respect? Than stand and except the critisizem that comes from failure, Place no responsibility or blame on any other person or action, strive to learn from this failure and take action to remove it as a possibility in the future! This a person whom deserves consideration and respect! There are only 2 neutral colors in the laws of life! Black and White, Right and Wrong! If you choose to believe that you can contrive and deceive hiding in the Gray areas that you create, the deception only exists to hide yourself from responsibility. Sure all situations can be handled better "After the fact" I approach problems this way, If you slide in my rig and grass stain it! I will not be pleased but will calmly inform you to clean it. If you jepordize my life I will very firmly brake your fucking jaw. Tom

Wouldn't there be a lot of complaints from the persons living near the DZ from all of the whistling sound during freefall?

Several things involved here! Lets say you have a "Factory New" power plant, I have seen them go 2500 plus hours! On cruisers, I have myself put 2000 on a "Factory New" engine hauling jumpers. A new motor has every part in prime size and condition, with a rebuild you will recondition to within the minimum to maximum tolerances that are allowed, so your rebuild will never be as perfect as new! The only exception to this would be a blueprinted rebuild, this means that every component measures at maximum value, and any part that may still be within usable tolerances would be discarded for a factory new or size item, the cost for this build would be the same or possible even more expensive than a "Factory New" engine. The key to deciding when is the appropriate time to rebuild is by testing your power plant at your 100 hour and annual inspections, Compression, Log and check oil consumption, oil changes at 25 hours (we hauling jumper beat oil to oblivion in a short time) always pull, inspect and clean the screen, or oil filter if you are lucky enough to have one. Another very good program is oil annailsis, it costs some cash but their test your oil same, and can tell you what rotating components are wearing the fastest in your motor, if the wear is on the average expected items, bearings, cam, lifters, rings etc, (there will be minute and exceptabe amounts that are deposited in the oil for average use) you are good to go but if they come back with metal from hard parts such as crankshafts or connecting rods, or making brass from drive gear bushings you need to make a move soon before the engine fails in flight. If you perform your own recondition you need to be either an A&P tech or work directly under the supervision of one (FAA rules) there are many items you need to measure and inspect, and missing any of these items could prove to be very costly in the long run. But with proper inspections and support you can do you work inhouse and have your aircraft provide better service, perform better and lower the cost.

He's correct, people assume because an item is new or fresh that it is guaranteed to be the best? not always the fact you are placing new and untested components in a situation. Sometimes they fail. Just part of the game, this applies to anything that is powered by petroleum distillates. Most people don't realize that when you jump on a jet to fly to some distant destination that if the engines on board have been reconditioned, that before they were installed, they were operated in a test pod than disassembled and inspected before installation to minimize the possibility of failure.

Year before last I built 3, we rechrome the cyinders, new pistons, regrind cam, recondition lifter bodies, magnaflux all hard parts, polish crank, resize rods, bush, and new bolts, replace valves as necessary the same with seats and guides, new gaskets, bearings, ring, seals, and recondition carb, mags, starter, and generator, plugs and check wires, recondition govenor, inspect and shot peen prop blades. My average cost per power plant, (all work inhouse) about $15,500.00 per unit. So it would come out about $15.50 per tack hour of operation for engine costs. Of course this can vary as the prop requires overhaul, or you may not need to recondition rods, (were fresh from last rebuild) turn crank to 0.010 under if below specs. It changes from more to less from overhaul to overhaul, but as I have looked lately the cost of hard parts for overhauls is getting pretty steep!

TBO here in the states is 1800 hours on most cessna recips, I personally perform majors on my cessnas at 1000 hours well below the manufacture recommended limits. The reason? The standards set are for the average joe blow whom is out cruising around at a reduced power setting, hence 1800 hours of use will pretty much use up the rotating and recipricating parts wear limits. We on the other hand operate our power plants at full power on every lift to altitude, stabilize temp than dive into the dirt and attempt to keep the now very hot engine from super cooling from the increased airflow and speed of descent. This is very hard on the power plant and I have found that over the years if I go past 1000 hours, I start to cause extra wear on hard parts that are very costly to recondition or replace. Yes! it costs more to perform the major overhaul sooner but in long term I save from the purchase or recondition of hard parts, and lower the chance of a hard part failure while in operation.