metallica 0 #1 August 4, 2003 Say a jumper sent his rig to a DZ for reserve pack job. The DZ assigns one of their riggers to do it. Something happens to the jumper due to lousy pack job. Whose liable to be sued? The DZ who who takes up the job or the rigger who was assigned the job? Speed kills! So does everything else... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #2 August 4, 2003 Thats an interesting question. Do we have any legal types that can shed some light on this. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichM 0 #3 August 4, 2003 How could you prove it is a lousy pack job? There are a few errors that can easily be spotted after a bounce, but please accept that even with the most careful packing, sometimes in this sport *shit happens*, and it's not anyone's fault. We all know the risks we take when we skydive, so my take is that if you can't deal with the consequences then take up fishing instead.Rich M Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #4 August 4, 2003 Something happens to the jumper due to lousy pack job......... ---> like what? can you give an example of a lousy pack job that would be Identifiable after a bounce? I can think of a few... impossible pull(maybe identifiable), molar strap still on the reserve, definatly easy to identify, barrel link that was loose and bent open (if you could find it) even the best pack job in the world can fail, and if your flailing/ spinning/ tumbling when you pull, you have just increased the odds of a failure of some kind. Its really sad that this is something that riggers do have to worry about. says something about the state of the world doesnt it?........ RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olstad 0 #5 August 4, 2003 A friend of mine had a 6 seconds reserve opening. Because his reserve PC was in a burble.... The whole thing was caught on tape... Subterminal of course... Erling ElevDo the math... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #6 August 4, 2003 Ok lets see. In America you sign all your rights away so you cant sue anyone. In England you are not allowed to make someone sign away their rights to sue for negligent acts which cause personal injury or death, (S2(1) Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977). DZs get a lot of protection from what waivers they are allowed to use and the Latin maxim "volenti non fit injuria" or you "voluntarily accept the risk of injury". This doesn’t help though if they are negligent. The simple answer is you can sue whoever is negligent. If that means the rigger for screwing up your pack job then you sue him. If he's employed by the DZ, you can sue them for employing someone who screws up pack jobs. Negligence is basically breaking a "duty of care" - in this case a rigger has a duty to take a very great ammount of care in packing your reserve. All you gotta do then is prove on the balance of probabilities (51% or more) that it was his screw up that caused the accident - see other posts above. There is a reported case of a DZ in the UK packing an old main into the reserve on a tandem. (rules changed because of this and that’s now no longer allowed. An ex army parachute display team member, training to be a tandem master had to use it and blew out the end cells on deployment, initiating a turn until impact. It was found that the DZ were negligent in using it as a reserve and negligent in not fitting reinforcing tape to it. He sued and got £954,592 for his injuries a few years back. Answer is - so long as you can prove negligence then you can sue. If you ask me this is a lot better than the US system as DZ's are protected from the accidents that are just "shit happens" and yet can be punnished if they just plain "F**k up". Now where do I send my bill? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BadDog 0 #7 August 4, 2003 Where are the DZ and the owner of the rig in your hypothetical located? Is the person who jumped the rig and had the mal the owner? Where did the jump take place? You need to establish governing law, jurisdiction, and venue. What was the mal, or what caused it (specifically), and what proof is there? BTW, your question was who would get sued, not who is liable, right? The answer to that question in the U.S. is "everyone". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #8 August 4, 2003 The quick and easy answer is that they will likely both get sued. In America they sue everyone who might have any money/assets, who is even peripherally associated with the problem. I would add that just because a reserve didn't work, doesn't necessarily mean there was any problem with the pack job. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleBadger 0 #9 August 4, 2003 I thought you were just a pretend lawyer matt... id've never helped you out if i knew the truth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #10 August 4, 2003 all fully qualified now - makes you wonder doesnt it... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metallica 0 #11 August 4, 2003 4 years back I went for a boogie in Asia. The organisers insisted that all expired reserves have to be packed by their riggers. I had to be one of the lucky few. I paid US$25 and was referred to one of their 'riggers' who supposedly packs for the military. The chap packs for the military so he should be legit right? WRONG! One week later, a packer opened up my reserve in Brisbane and told me the bungee cord was knotted in the freebag. I had my associate email the organiser regarding the incident and got the following reply, "These riggers should know better than to do that!" I was absolutely pissed! These riggers were hired by the organiser and paid a measly wage of less than US$10 a day while the organisers pocket all the packing fees. For all you know, they'll push the blame to the riggers when things go wrong. I figured if the organisers realise they are liable, they should be more cautious in whom they are hiring. Speed kills! So does everything else... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #12 August 4, 2003 The DZ would have been totally liable. Employers are liable for negligent acts performed by employees in the course of thier duties - its called vicarious liability. The DZ hired the packer so you (or your estate ) would have sued the DZ had anything happened. Would still depend on what country you were in and what sort of waiver you signed/were legally allowed to sign though. But I think it would be dificult for the DZ to be able to escape liability under the circumstances - just so long as you could PROVE that it was a negligent pack job, which may well have been dificult if it went in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #13 August 4, 2003 Let's keep this in perspective. A knotted bungee is unlikely to kill you. On the other hand, it is indicative of sloppy inspections. This clearly the fault of boogie organizers. If they are only paying riggers $10 per day, they are getting what they pay for. At a bare minimum they owe you a refund. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #14 August 4, 2003 QuoteHow could you prove it is a lousy pack job? How about a packing tool left in the reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #15 August 22, 2003 QuoteThis doesn’t help though if they are negligent. Is there a difference between "negligence" and "Gross Negligence?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
