Some "advice" I received...

[JumpeRod 0]

Ever since I was a baby skydiver running around the dropzone sucking my thumb and having candy stolen from me by the big bad freefliers I have been one to ask questions of everyone I could find. I would ask the instructors of course, I would ask the skygods (well, really they'd just hear me ask someone else and come over and tell me what was right), and I would ask the people in my peer experience group hoping that they might have gotten good information from someone else. I would then take all of the different opinions, references, agreements, disagreements, and snide remarks, jumble them around in what remains of my brain (thank you high school poor life decisions) and form my belief and go with it. Usually it's easy to weed through the bullshit and recognize the DGITs and DGIT like advice, but this weekend I was presented with some information that borders on disturbing and I want to run it by the infinite wisdom that this community has to offer and see if my concerns are founded OR if I was passed on some advice that, though sounding ridiculous, is in fact valid.

I have begun the first step in downsizing. I have completed all of the requirements many times over on the "Do this before downsizing or you will undoubtedly die a horrible death... probably not from skydiving, but that's irrelevant" list... or whatever it's called. My next step is to decide which direction to go, do I stay with my current planform and buy a Sabre2 150 or do I demo a Sabre2 150 for several jumps, get comfortable with the downsize, and buy a Katana 150 as swooping and ultimately expensive handkerchiefs, very thin string, long yonkle lines, and a broken ankle or two are my goal.

I presented this quandary to a fellow skydiver while at the Keys Boogie (sucks if you weren't there... it was awesome) who was more than happy to discuss my future nylon choices and as he is a Velocity pilot with many years of swooping under his belt, I felt that he had the potential to be a good source of information.

His response was that my best next step would be to jump a Stiletto 150 based on the fact that the Sabre2 and the Stiletto are similar canopies in that the Stiletto is an elliptical modification of the Sabre1 so I will find, though more responsive and touchy, some similar flight characteristics to my Sabre2 making the transition easier and (I think he was hinting at) safer. At this point in the conversation, I was still with him but countered explaining that I do not want to be starting my turn as low as I need to on my Sabre2 and as low as I have witnessed Stiletto pilots have to for their swoop, which is why I am considering a Katana. I recognize it's a faster, more ground hungry canopy but requires more altitude to complete the turn, that makes me think that it gives more time to notice the corner and bail out of it if it's there. (Also Icarus folks, don't get your panties in a bunch, I will be demoing the Crossfire2 as well).

Here is where he lost me. The conversation then switched to "there is almost no difference between a Stiletto 150 and a Velocity 120 and that would be your next step". Exqueeze me... baking powder... It sounded like you just said I should downsize from a Stiletto 150 to a Velocity 120 because they have similar flight characteristics. At this point, I discovered I was on a now call and did not know where my altimeter, parachute, or dignity from last night were so I bailed. Never got a chance to finish the conversation, so I thought I'd write a novel to you guys and for those of you still with me... what are your thoughts.
-R

PS - if the person who I had this conversation with would like to weigh in as well, that would be great. In no way was i trying to ridicule you in this post, but the more I think about the conversation, the more I question that particular canopy progressions merit. Please prove me wrong, I just want to learn!

There is an art, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Pick a nice day and try it.
-- Douglas Adams

[RichLees 0]

Between 400 and 600 jumps, I was on a Sabre 2 170 at your wingload. I tried a Stiletto 150 and quite liked it, but found I was turning (front riser) lower for a similar swoop. I stuck with my Sabre 2. I tried a crossfire 2 and preferred the sabre 2. I found the Sabre 2 can dive more than either of them.

I tried a Katana 150 and was blown away. And a bit scared. 150 jumps later, I bought a Katana 135. At around 950 jumps, I got a Velo 120. The main resemblance to the Stiletto 150 is pack volume. Both are agile on the toggles, but the recovery arc is double on the Velo. I agree with your view that the extra height gives you more time to dig out, but its best to avoid gardening as both canopies are plenty lively enough to break more than both ankles.

They're both good canopies and both valid steps in your swoop progression, but I wouldn't have wanted to go from one straight to the other.

[superstu 0]

Personally i would try and demo any canopy i'm considering buying before i actually buy. i still do this to this day.

as far as canopy choices are concerned and your goals it's very hard to say what would be right for you cause the majority of us haven't seen you fly and land. however, in my opinion the stiletto and sabre2 are great canopies to start the process on. The Katana in my opinion is the closest thing to a Velocity out there and probably not the best canopy to start learning on. try and demo the stiletto and sabre2 and see which one you like the flight characteristics better then worry about size.

Really any canopy, given the pilots skill, will swoop great. For example Jimmy Tranter, one of the original test pilots of the Velocity, jumps a Spectre 97 loaded around 1.6 for our Bronco's demo's and can out swoop people on Velo's and JVX's. He can pull 250-300' swoops on the thing, he can carve it on the pond, and has dead aim accuracy with it.

Swooping has NEVER been about the size or type of canopy, it's ALL about your abilities and experiences. Give Jimmy T an F-111 PD 190 and he'd still out swoop most people.

One last thing, if you're going to get into swooping please realize that it's not IF you're going to hit the ground, it's WHEN you hit the ground. please take this into consideration when getting into this aspect of skydiving.

be safe...stu

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[DocPop 1]

I had a long conversation about canopy progression with Nick Grillet from PD recently and he laid out all his demo canopies to show me the way PD look at them.

Basically you start at the bottom with Student canopies (Navigator) then move up to "intermediate" canopies (Spectre, Pulse, Storm and Silhouette). From here he divided their canopies into two "paths" - swooping and non-swooping - based on how interested the person was in canopy piloting.

The left path was the non-CP path and basically consisted of going to the Stiletto, which because it is a high performance wing was way out on the left.

The right (CP) path started with the Sabre2 and then progressed through the Katana to the Velocity, which was way out on the right.

He explained to me that the safest canopy transitions were between canopies next to each other on the diagram. So, in answer to your question, the Velo is a looong way from the Stiletto.

So if a jumper wanted to move from a ST to a Velo they would recommend moving to a Sabre2, or at least a Katana before jumping a Velo to get used to canopies which stay in the dive longer.

I personally only have experience of the Sabre2 150 to Katana 135 transition and while it was exciting, it was in no way scary. Your experience may differ. I should also add that I pulled high a lot & went back to double front approaches from doing 180s when I changed canopy. The Katana just feels more flyable. I can do what I wanted with it without having to force it like I felt with the Sabre2 towards the end.

I guess in summary, give PD a call and talk to them about it. They are more than willing to help anyone out.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[JumpeRod 0]

To RichLees:
I appreciate the feedback and your progression is similar to the one that I had roughly outlined as the one I would take based on demos and currency and such.

There is an art, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Pick a nice day and try it.
-- Douglas Adams

[JumpeRod 0]

I appreciate that feedback Stu, but I am not asking for people's opinion on my personal progression right now as I do understand that few of the people on the forum have seen me fly/land. For that information I will seek guidance from people at my dropzone and who are familiar with me in person. I'm looking for a response more in regards to specific canopy flight characteristics and how they can be used progressively to learn to swoop faster more safely. I just don't see how, from what I know (without having flown either) about Stilettos and Velocities, they can be the best choice for progression, especially a 30 sq. ft. downsize.

Quick side note, in regards to "If you're going to hit the ground or When" I have already hit the ground... off the ground... in to the pond... it was a bad day, but I was very lucky. I learned that lesson the hard way and I recognize that if I had been flying a smaller canopy than my SA170, I could have been a lot worse off than a few bruises and some hurt pride.

There is an art, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Pick a nice day and try it.
-- Douglas Adams

[raymod2 1]

JumpeRod: Your instincts are correct. It's pretty much common knowledge among swoopers that the Stiletto is not a good tool for swooping. I jumped one briefly during my canopy progression (Sabre 150->Stiletto 120->Crossfire 119). I remember liking the downsize but not liking the flight characteristics (ie. the short recovery arc). If you are eyeing a Velocity sometime in your future I recommend you pass over the Stiletto.

[LetsGoOutside 0]

While the diving characteristics are significantly different between a Velocity and a Stiletto, your advice-giver is right in that the overall flight characteristics are actually pretty similar! The Katana is in there, too, but is much, much closer to the Velocity.

If you're thinking about a Sabre2 150 right now, it sounds like you might want to hold off on the Katana. It's an amazing canopy, but it's very fast and ground hungry next to what it sounds like you've flown. The Sabre2 is a very-rounded canopy that has plenty of dive for you as you learn to use it. The Stiletto is a very responsive, fun, fast canopy, but wants to come out of a front riser turn sooner. Either one is a good path to the Katana -- it just depends on how you want to fly.

As far as the Velocity goes, you'll want to wait until you're dialed on flying fast with more forgiving wings. You'll also want to be staying current, maybe 300 jumps per year or more, if you really want to be a fulltime Velo pilot.

Good luck, stay safe!

[BMFin 0]

Quote

however, in my opinion the stiletto and sabre2 are great canopies to start the process on.

Coming from a competition swooper like you, I just want make sure I read this right: Do you honestly think a stiletto is a great canopy to start learning how to swoop ?

[Throttlebender 0]

Seems clear that he meant what he said from what I read.

Also, read the thread, "Is the stiletto obselete" in this forum. There are al lot of guys that seem quite fond of the stiletto for swooping among other things.

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[superstu 0]

Quote

Coming from a competition swooper like you, I just want make sure I read this right: Do you honestly think a stiletto is a great canopy to start learning how to swoop ?

Yes, but let me clarify.

It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that swooping starts with the basics of flying a pattern and having a good knowledge of its capabilities. When I coach people and they want to "start" to learn how to swoop, to me it doesn't matter what canopy they are on because at any level a swoop doesn't start with a 90,180, or even an 810, it starts with a good pattern and having the ability to control your parachute in all situations, that's where learning to swoop "starts" with me. It could "start" somewhere else for other people, but from what i've seen those people that haven't learned the basics typically don't get very far either in swooping or our sport.

now if you're talking about learning a specific turn or maximizing your swoop, then yes i don't think the stiletto is the best choice of gear to have, but i don't think it's the worst either. there have been plenty of examples of people swooping the shit out of stilettos, spectres, whatever.

again, it's just my .02

p.s. On a personal note at the begining of this past swoop season i personally took a step back and revisited my own pattern and spent a solid 2-3 months of jumping focusing primarily on my pattern because i wasn't happy with my consistancy in my swoops (hitting the gates, power, ect). Consequently this past swoop competition season was one of my best years yet on a personal level. I attribute it to me getting back to the basics and focusing on things i had forgotten. Just food for thought

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Quote

however, in my opinion the stiletto and sabre2 are great canopies to start the process on.

Coming from a competition swooper like you, I just want make sure I read this right: Do you honestly think a stiletto is a great canopy to start learning how to swoop ?

I wonder if all you Stiletto haters, most of whom seem to have very little experience with the canopy, realize most of the worlds best canopy pilots, the same ones you're all trying to emulate, have a ton of time under a Stiletto?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Skydivesg 6]

Stu, I agree with you on this post and think you're spot on.

But don't you agree that most up and coming jumpers, who are looking to swoop, simply don't spend enough time learning to get the maximum performance out of their current canopy? Whatever it may be.

Instead they've mistakenly developed the mindset that small and faster is what will make them a better swooper. And so they move to a different canopy before they've learned to "ring-out" the one they're jumping.

I've got many jumps on a Stilletto and still believe that is the best all around canopy made. However when someone tells me they want to eventually learn how to swoop and asks about canopy progression, I tell them Sabre2, Katana and then Velo. That's the swooping path.

The Stilletto is on the other path.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[superstu 0]

Quote

But don't you agree that most up and coming jumpers, who are looking to swoop, simply don't spend enough time learning to get the maximum performance out of their current canopy? Whatever it may be.

Instead they've mistakenly developed the mindset that small and faster is what will make them a better swooper. And so they move to a different canopy before they've learned to "ring-out" the one they're jumping.

no arguement from me on this statement. this is one major reason for the higher incidence rates over the past years.

Quote

I've got many jumps on a Stilletto and still believe that is the best all around canopy made. However when someone tells me they want to eventually learn how to swoop and asks about canopy progression, I tell them Sabre2, Katana and then Velo. That's the swooping path.

It does appears that's how PD has set up their canopy progression, just like Icarus is safire, crossfire, FX/VX/JVX, and when possible i'll guide people to those paths. however, it's still more about the pilot than the gear in my opinion and I won't necessarily tell someone to get off a certain canopy (unless its not flight worthy) just because it doesn't fit into the "optimal" progression.

there are obviously a lot of variables to consider when starting to swoop and the progression within swooping and its just easier and safer to help someone out when that person is there in front of you and you can watch them fly and land.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down