Xaos 21 Vs 27

[TEric 0]

In reading through past posts about the Xaos, it seems that the general consensus in the past is that the 21 preforms well at wingloadings of 2.0-2.3, and the 27 preforms well at wingloadings of 2.4+.
I've flown a FX and a VX for comparison purposes, and it feels like the 21 cell has a much quicker descent rate, making a very short canopy ride, which is perhaps not the best for getting back from a long spot (as I often have to do after a tandem vid jump)
I am only looking for a wing loading of 2.1, but prefer the 27 cell descent rate. All in all, will I get better preformance from the 21? Will I still be able to get back from a long spot with the 21? And why does no one compete with a 21 cell canopy (except the velo of course)?

[parachutist 1]

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general consensus in the past is that the 21 preforms well at wingloadings of 2.0-2.3, and the 27 preforms well at wingloadings of 2.4+.

I owned a Xaos-27 92 loaded at 2.45. It behaves well, but the stall speed was too high for comfortable landings when 0 wind. You must run very fast in those conditions. If I had it to do over again, I'd go with 2.1 - 2.2 range. The front riser pressure was very low on the fronts and I haven't found another canopy that gives that much induced speed for such little input.

Before the xaos-27 I'd flown a VX97 for a while. The Xaos has a much flatter glide, slower openings (like 500-600 ft openings), and I thought it was more fun because flying it is not as much work as VX
Chris

[lewmonst 0]

I've got 21's loaded at about 2.3. They definitely fly different from the 27. I didn't really notice too much difference in decent rate (I've jumped several sizes of 27 cells, including a 83 at 2.4) I could hang in brakes for a considerably long time on my 21-88 at 2.3. The 83, when hanging in brakes, sunk a bit faster bc of the higher wingloading, but still, good range on both.

When you ask for better performance, exactly what do you mean? I think the 21's open better than the 27's in that they are less needy or don't search as much on opening. I think the 27's flies better and has longer glide at the bottom of the recovery arc. I can get back from what I think are long spots on my 21. And I compete on my 21 in the CPC at least. I chose the 21 over the 27 because i mostly do camera, and need the more consistent openings.
just my opinion. Although, I'd like to get 27's next.

peace
Karen Lewis

http://www.exitshot.com

[TEric 0]

Ok, here are a few details
My exit weight = 170lbs
The new CPC weight limitations allow me to wear 35 lbs (max) for an exit weight of 205lbs.
I think that I would order an 85, for an everyday WL of 2.0, and a max allowable WL of 2.4
So... I know from experience that increasing my wing loading on a XF2 from 1.6 to 1.85 allowed the canopy to dive and carry speed longer after the turn, making my setup easier. Will the 27 cell want to come out of the dive quickly by itself at a relatively light loading of 2.0?
Of course, I get get a 79 - for an everyday WL of 2.15, and max 2.59, and have a firmer everyday loading, and probably not have to user the maximum weight to get to a respectable WL for speed and distance.(but have a slightly smaller, twitchier wing)

[ntacfreefly 0]

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relatively light loading of 2.0

There's nothing 'relatively light' about a 2.0 loading.

Jay still flies his 103 at 1.9 for fun.

Don't kid yourself and I certainly don't recommend buying a canopy size just so you can load it at 2.4-2.5 for a CPC comp.

I competed last year at 2.1 and this year @ 2.3 and been able to hold my own just fine. With the new rules it's very apparent how much it's about pilot technique.

Additionally I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of wing size rule come about (along size loading). The purpose of the weight restriction was safety. Ian Bobo and I were chatting this weekend about it and he too felt that we had to be careful about encouraging a 'reverse trend' towards highly loaded tiny wings.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[Spizzzarko 0]

Jay still flies his 103 at 1.9 for fun.


He isn't quite the fat kid that some of us are. I got his 103 at 2.2 exit loading.

I think the weight restrictions are a good thing, because they really don't bother me as I don't wear weight. It was getting slightly rediculous last season, with people carrying all that weight.

The one thing that does kind of suck this season is the handicap for the advanced flyers. The added 35' on the speed course is killer. I have people here in my region that are top notch canopy pilots and get to compete on the 10' gates, but I have to fly 5' gates and add 35' to my speed round. These guys didn't compete in the nationals or didn't come in the top 15 at nationals last season, and they have a better chance of finishing in the top 4 this season than I do.

[marks 0]

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These guys didn't compete in the nationals or didn't come in the top 15 at nationals last season, and they have a better chance of finishing in the top 4 this season than I do.

you will compete in the same course they do at finals.

[Spizzzarko 0]

So I can vert every jump of my three comps this year, and then make the ten footers at CPC nationals, and destroy all bitches then? I was under the impression that there will be the handicap in the CPC nationals.

Grantious the Destroyer.

[superstu 0]

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The new CPC weight limitations allow me to wear 35 lbs (max) for an exit weight of 205lbs.
I think that I would order an 85, for an everyday WL of 2.0, and a max allowable WL of 2.4

i would advise not wearing ANY added weight for a while (like all of this season at least). packing on weight should be something like downsizing. meaning, fly your canopy to the max, landing on all inputs in any conditions, in almost any environment, then once you feel comfortable about doing that then MAYBE start adding on a few pounds over the course of many jumps. just don't get a new canopy and load it up with 35 pounds of crap just because other people are doing it.
a lot of people don't realize how much skill it takes to fly a parachute CORRECTLY at 2.2+, and that you'll have better perfomances at a lighter wingloading because the canopy is more pilotable and more forgiving than it is at a higher wingloading.

build a solid foundation first then start experimenting with wingloadings, bigger turns, ect.

sorry to get off topic and i'm not trying to jack your thread, but i just wanted to get that out there.

to answer you original question though, i would go with a 27 cell over a 21 cell unless you get a velo. that is the only 21 cell i would get. i too went from a xfire1 @ 1.85 to a vx 84 @ 2.1 and found everything very similar except the bottom end lift. i don't have too muche experience with xaos's so i won't give my opinion on that specifically.

if you have any specific questions gimme a PM, be safe...

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[Spizzzarko 0]

LISTEN TO THIS MAN... HE IS A PRO...

[superstu 0]

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LISTEN TO THIS MAN... HE IS A PRO...

lol...i would use that term very loosely with me

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[ntacfreefly 0]

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LISTEN TO THIS MAN... HE IS A PRO.

His new name is "The Fire King". After watching Iceage during a weather hold this weekend we all decided "The Flaming One" was something we'd try and make stick

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[superstu 0]

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His new name is "The Fire King". After watching Iceage during a weather hold this weekend we all decided "The Flaming One" was something we'd try and make stick

you guys fucking suck...bastards

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[TEric 0]

I completely agree with putting a lot of jumps on a new canopy before strapping any weights on. I put 600 jumps on my XF2 [email protected] before downsizing to my [email protected]. My calculation with allowable weights was more forward thinking than anything else. Until there are any major technological advances, it would seem like I could spend the rest of my skydiving career on the "same" wing, turf surfing without weights on an everyday basis, and adding weights (once I am completely comfortable in all conditions, and then in small amounts while learning) for competition.
I was actually considering a VX, but am put off a little because of the rumoured harsh openings. Many of my jumps will be video jumps, and I would like to be able to use my neck for a few more years yet. I could easily be swayed toward any xbraced canopy, though, and am open to any other opinions. Most of my friends (peers and mentors) are suggesting a Velocity, but I can't help but think that that is simply because they are currently the 'winningest' canopy on the market. Unfortunately I have exhausted my supply of friends with canopies suitable to demo, most of them fly 96s or larger which I would only load at 1.77 - not really a reasonable comparison.

*Note - wing loading discrepancies are due to weight loss over the winter. I was 185 out the door at the end of last season.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Most of my friends (peers and mentors) are suggesting a Velocity,

I'd listen to your friends. I've only got about 1500 velo jumps (over 1000 on the same size) and I absolutely, positively love them.

If performance, reliability and customer service are your main criteria they are the only one's I'd consider.

That said there's nothing 'wrong' with the other choices out there, but there's only one other one I'd consider buying.

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Unfortunately I have exhausted my supply of friends with canopies suitable to demo, most of them fly 96s or larger which I would only load at 1.77 - not really a reasonable comparison.

I'm 182 out the door. I jumped a velo 96 for the first time in a LONG time this weekend for shits and giggles. It was a blast to fly and swoop. I was wearing 16 pounds of lead (nothing excessive).

I think if you can demo similar sized canopies you'll get a feel for what you like/don't like - regardless of the 1.9 or so loading.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[davelepka 4]

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I have exhausted my supply of friends with canopies suitable to demo, most of them fly 96s or larger which I would only load at 1.77 - not really a reasonable comparison.

Don't forget about your friend Kim in the demo dept at PD, she's got all kinds of toys for you to try.

Edit:

I think that swoops comps have really fucked over the whole WL situation. Guys see pros jumping and winning on 'X' WL, and then they believe that X is the ideal Wl for that canopy. This is not the case. 'X' is the right Wl for that pilot, on that canopy. The difference in skill between the pros, and the rest of us also dictates a different ideal WL. No shit.

I jumped a 90 Velo for most of last season at 2.3/2.4. Then I bought a 103, and jumped that for a month or so. I also borrow 84's, 96's, and 111's when I need a back up rig. I'm pretty sure it would take a good number of jumps on any of those sizes to show a consistant and markable difference between them. As it is now, they all pretty much do the same thing. The small ones get me there faster, and the big ones get me there slower. They all end up in the same neighborhood.

Buy a size that makes sense for your ability and 99% of the jumps you'll do. Don't buy a size because a sponsored pilot wins at that WL. Thats stupid. Buy what you can safely fly on a day to day basis, and your skills will make up the .2 or .3 in reduced WL.

Those couple of points will really pay off if something goes wrong.

[superstu 0]

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Guys see pros jumping and winning on 'X' WL, and then they believe that X is the ideal Wl for that canopy. This is not the case. 'X' is the right Wl for that pilot, on that canopy. The difference in skill between the pros, and the rest of us also dictates a different ideal WL. No shit.

you hit the nail on the head. good post

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[davelepka 4]

Just to expand on that a bit, back in the day, before swooping was swooping, and comps weren't even on the radar, you chose a canopy based on your skill level. There were no comparisons to this guy or that guy. Any hot swoopers jumped what ever they jumped because they were happy with the performance. Their choices were devoid of outside influence.

An example, when Rickster shot the footage for Crosswind, I think he was using a 120. I know for a fact that there were loads of jumpers in Deland jumping 107s and 97s, and Olav might have had an 87 at the time. Either, he went with the 120 for what was to be swoopings big screen debut.

Just because a certain guy has success with a wing at a certain WL, that doesn't mean that any other Wl will wrong, or giving up anything. Take a look at how many changes in WL and canoyp sizes the pros make. As their skills and techniques change and improve, so does the tools they need for the job.

Don't let the outside world dictate your choices. Act as if you wre ein a bubble. Regardless fo your expericne or intentions, remember that a jump in WL and a change in canopy type is never a good idea. If you're going to do it, make it reasonable. Do what seems smart to the outside observer, not whats cool to fellow swoopers, who may be too close to the situation to be objective.

[TEric 0]

Thanks for all the good info!