superstu 0 #1 May 23, 2004 what's the x-vx mod? i know you send it to precision and they do something, but what? do they basically turn it into a xaos?Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #2 May 24, 2004 PM Groundzero and he can elaborate. I beleive they change the line trim and the stabilizer..but I am not totaly sure. ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeeeeeeFly 0 #3 May 24, 2004 And change the lines to HMA versus the vectran. Also they eliminate the cascades in the lines. The idea is to turn the VX into a Xaos... ~G~ "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 May 24, 2004 The X mod will pretty much change an FX into a Xaos 21, however it will not change a VX into a Xaos 27. It's close but there are differences. Still it makes many of the harder opening VX's in to much nicer opening canopies with more managable riser pressures. It's a good thing.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #5 May 24, 2004 Thats a good point. A friend and I had matching FXs from the same time period and he had his converted to an x-FX. His opened nice after that. Mine was a frequent slammer and I sold it. ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #6 May 25, 2004 QuoteThe X mod will pretty much change an FX into a Xaos 21, however it will not change a VX into a Xaos 27. From what I understand, they will do everything except change the nose. I includes the continous hma with trim changes, stableribs and brass slider grommets. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #7 May 25, 2004 Canopy pilots flying the Icarus EXTreme FX and VX now have an option to get an X-Mod done by Precision Aerodynamics. Usually made when the canopy is due for a re-line, which is recommended at about 300 to 400 jumps on a Vectran line set, the modification is an alternative which will offer several advantages and an upgrade in performance. The modification consists of replacing the stock Vectran with non-cascaded HMA lines, re-trimming the canopy, replacing the stabilizers with Precision’s “stabilrib”, and installing a new slider with lighter brass grommets instead of the stock stainless steel. The “stabilrib” integrates the stabilizer with the end rib and improves the efficiency of the end cells by loading the stabilizers and it eliminates the short section of suspension lines from the linestop to the rib inside the stabilizer. Advantages of the continuous HMA lines are reduced chord wise distortion of the airfoil and they will last more than twice as long as Vectran. About 9 years ago Paul “Jyro” Martyn of New Zealand Aerosports introduced a revolutionary new class of canopy based on the Excalibur, an early cross-braced design by Performance Designs. They were known as the Icarus EXTreme and developed into the 21-cell EXTreme FX and 27-cell VX version. In 1997, New Zealand Aerosports entered into a partnership with Precision Aerodynamics of Dunlap, Tennessee to produce and market the Icarus line of canopies. In 2000, CIMSA Ingeneria de Sistemas S.A. of Spain was brought into the partnership to expand marketing into Europe. The advanced design of these canopies necessitated very small tolerances in line trim. Because of the need for a fiber that would be less susceptible to heat shrinkage generated by the slider than Spectra, suspension lines made of Vectran were developed for use on the canopies manufactured by PA and later adopted for use by NZ Aerosports as well. But the ability to stay in trim over several hundred jumps came at a price. Vectran, while more dimensionally stable than Spectra, is much less resistant to abrasion. Vectran line sets began showing considerable wear in as few as 200 to 300 jumps, sometimes even less. Two years ago, Precision Aerodynamics decided to leave that partnership and once again produce its’ own line of canopies, introducing the Xaos models. The Xaos-21 and 27 have a suspension line that has been used in Europe on the Nitro canopies by Profile Research of Germany for over 9 years. The HMA or High Modulus Aramid lines have the dimensional stability of Vectran with the durability of Spectra, with re-lining recommended at 600 to 700 jumps. They have a smaller profile than similar strength Spectra lines, reducing drag. This reduction is at least partially offset by the need for continuous lines, as the small diameter does not allow for cascading. HMA is chemically the same as Kevlar, which is a low modulus aramid, but because of the weave and density, is superior to Kevlar for this application. A reported drawback to HMA line, one that is strongly refuted by PA, is that it is weakened by UV radiation. This review is based on a subjective comparison of an 89 sq. ft VX with approximately 500 jumps in the original factory condition and 100 jumps with Precision’s X-Mod. The canopy was manufactured in October of 1999 and was among the first dozen produced. All jumps were done at an average wing loading of 2.45 lbs/sq. ft from field elevations ranging from 700 ft MSL to 1000 ft MSL over a broad range of temperatures and wind conditions, including turbulence. Some standard VX’s have been know to have firm to hard openings and/or surge on opening. Tail flutter was also a problem on some of the very early VX’s. The subject canopy was a “good one” and never exhibited any of these characteristics. Before the X-Mod, the canopy averaged 3 seconds from container opening until the slider was down. With careful weight control in the harness, the opening would be within 15 or 20 degrees of heading after a little “searching”. Openings since the X-Mod have been consistently about 4 seconds, not as soft or long as a Spectre, but similar to a Stiletto. They have been very comfortable with a video helmet and camera. The canopy also seems easier to keep on heading during the opening sequence as the tendency to seek a heading is less pronounced. One note, Precision recommends using the small rubber bands for line stows and double wrapping them because of the small line diameters of the HMA lines. The canopy was jumped with small, single wrapped mil spec rubber bands with good results. Rear riser turns with the brakes set are quicker and steeper with a more noticeable oversteer. With the brakes released, the rear risers have less pressure and the turns are very quick but controllable and predictable. The glide can be flattened out with very little outward pressure on the rear risers and pulling down more than 3 inches puts the canopy on the edge of a stall. The stall with rear risers is very abrupt and violent. Overall, after the X-Mod, the canopy is more sensitive to rear riser input but has noticeably better glide. Front riser turns have less initial pressure and it does not build as fast or as much as before the X-Mod. Toggle pressure is similar to before the mod, perhaps a bit lighter and the turn rate is not noticeably different. The unmodified VX had a long recovery arc. But now, after an aggressive dive, it requires some toggle input to plane out. Before the mod, an aggressive toggle turn and a transition to front risers during the momentum loss at the apex was needed to achieve a critical dive angle, where the dive could be sustained for several thousand feet with moderate pressure on double front risers. After the X-Mod, the front riser pressures are light enough to achieve a critical, sustainable dive with a front riser snap turn to double fronts. With the X-Mod, there no such things as starting the landing maneuver too high and planing out early…just let it dive and use the front risers to steer it to whatever heading is desired during the dive. The flare is stronger, with longer surfs and better shut down. The X-Mod allows the canopy to maintain its’ lift at a noticeably slower airspeed. One characteristic the canopy exhibited before and after the X-Mod is very high toggle pressure at the bottom of the recovery arc after a high-speed dive. In the dive, speeds in the mid 80s were recorded on a police radar gun with the plane out in the lower 70 mph range. Rear riser landings should only be attempted by very experienced canopy pilots and then only after considerable experimentation at safe altitudes. Careful, smooth inputs by the pilot will result in consistent crosswind surfs of over 200 feet. Erratic inputs will result in a very ungraceful landing, or worse. Since the X-mod, the canopy has been stable and seems to maintain good pressurization during the flare but turbulence is more noticeable. In summary, the X-Mod by Precision Aerodynamics results in an improvement in the overall performance of the EXTreme VX, with better opening characteristics, better glide, longer surfs and a stronger flare. The cost of the X-Mod is $458.00 as opposed to the $268.00 for a standard Vectran re-line and includes replacement of the stock stabilizers with Precision’s “stabilrib” and a new slider. After the initial modification, HMA re-lines cost the same as the standard Vectran re-line. When one considers this and the life expectancy of the HMA lines is more than two times that of Vectran, the seemingly high initial cost turns out to be a good value. The added performance is a bonus. Precision will return the original slider with the canopy after the X-Mod and upon request, will also return the stabilizer logo panels. The HMA lines don’t have the clean, white look of Spectra and packing them is like trying to pack cooked spaghetti. If you are not satisfied with the X-Mod return the canopy to Precision within 30 days. They will return it to the original configuration with a standard Vectran re-line and the final cost will be that of a stock Vectran re-line. Contact Precision Aerodynamics at 423-949-4688 for more information about the X-Mod on your EXTreme FX or VX canopy.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #8 May 27, 2004 Before I bought the first of my 3 Xaos's, 21-85 21-88, and a 27-79. I demoed an 84 XVX! It opened like a wicked tornadoe!!! The Xaos' open so much better ithere is no comparison!! When I contacted Precision about the XVX, they told me that every canopy has a personallity and that they could not take the personallity out of the XVX! It was not a XAOS after the mod! It was better than the VX but no where near as nice as a Xaos! I jump my 79-27 at 4.23/1 and couldn't ask for a nicer canopy. The XVX surged like a bitch on opening! I sent it back and ordered a Xaos! Good luck! Conway Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kimblair13 0 #9 May 27, 2004 ( I jump my 79-27 at 4.23/1 ) wow...i thought around 2.2 was the norm high people went to? you must be a big boy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #10 May 27, 2004 Alan, Let me clairify a couple of things for you guys: Quote Usually made when the canopy is due for a re-line, which is recommended at about 300 to 400 jumps on a Vectran line set,.... The recommended number of jumps on vectran is 400-600 jumps. A reported drawback to HMA line, one that is strongly refuted by PA, is that it is weakened by UV radiation..... Both Vectran and Technora(HMA) are UV sensitive with Technora being the most. I have been working with both Vectran and Technora for some time now and have learned a great deal about these two fibers. I have both Technora (340lb.) and Vectran on the shelf in my shop and on my last reline I used Vectran instead of Technora if that tells you anything! We are currently having Technora spun in a 1100lb. and colored (for UV purposes) for main lines. That line is the same diameter as 580 Vectran and will be tested thoughly before use. The beefer line should be safer in the long run with more tensile stength and less chance of breakage. Hopefully within a year or two, we can have a line set that can last 1000 jumps or more! One question though; who out there is jumping the VX-X mod on the swooping Tour? Blue Ones, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ramon 0 #11 May 27, 2004 Quote One question though; who out there is jumping the VX-X mod on the swooping Tour? Blue Ones, MEL I don't know of any pros (most are sponsored) and I have yet to meet an advanced competitor on one. And it should be noted that Team Xaos and Team Extreme, have modified line trims on some of their canopies such that the behave differently than the production line of xaos27s and vxs. Ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumperconway 0 #12 May 27, 2004 Quote( I jump my 79-27 at 4.23/1 ) wow...i thought around 2.2 was the norm high people went to? you must be a big boy Sorry, a little dislexic last night, 2.43/1 with 4 way weights! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites alan 1 #13 May 27, 2004 QuoteUsually made when the canopy is due for a re-line, which is recommended at about 300 to 400 jumps on a Vectran line set,.... The recommended number of jumps on vectran is 400-600 jumps. The 300 to 400 jumps numbers for Vectran replacement were based on information provided by Precision Aerodynamics. I would expect that the numbers may vary depending on the source. QuoteBoth Vectran and Technora(HMA) are UV sensitive with Technora being the most. I have been working with both Vectran and Technora for some time now and have learned a great deal about these two fibers. I have both Technora (340lb.) and Vectran on the shelf in my shop and on my last reline I used Vectran instead of Technora if that tells you anything! George or Chris can provide you with technical data from the manufacturer that refutes this. At the time I wrote the article, I had and had read that data. It was over a year ago though. PA was monitoring canopies being jumped in the west and southwest with HMA (Technora) lines, mostly Nitros, and they were still going strong with 700 to 800 jumps. The lines had been in use in Europe for quite several years and PA was firm in it's re-line recommendations for Technora. My canopy now has another hundred or so jumps on it since the evaluation, the HMA lines still show no wear. I have no technical means for testing/measuring UV degradation, so I'll just have to wait until something fails or 800 jumps, whichever comes first. I don't follow the swoop tour closely but as some one else has said, most of those guys are sponsored so I wouldn'd expect many to jump an Icarus canopy with a PA modification. They do experiment with different line trims. I think the few freelancers on the tour would want to jump a factory canopy with the hopes of picking up that sponsorship when their performance merrits it.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #14 May 27, 2004 Quotethe HMA lines still show no wear. I think that is the problem some people have with HMA. It doesnt show wear like vectran so you wont know if or when it will break. I know of people who wave gone close to 1000 jumps on hma. I also have read on here of at least one who broke a steering line with I believe under 250 jumps on a canopy. I would prefer to be able to see the wear on my lines and change them accordingly. Why is PA now doing the brake lines in dacron if they believe it to not be a problem? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeeeeeeFly 0 #15 May 27, 2004 Jonny's right regarding the HMA and shows of wear. Icarus has a set up in Spain where they test Vectran and HMA on stress simulator where brass and stainless steel gromets slide down the line to replicatethe action of the slider on opening. They have concluded that HMA will suddenly snap while the Vectran begins to show wear. Also I have seen pilots change out there brake lines to Dacron or Vectran just because of the uncertainty of HMA. Also for competition there are a lot of pilots out there that have their sponsors change there lines to HMA for swoop competitions. Though this seems to be a trend I am not saying all pilots do it... ~G~ P.S. Thanks MEL... "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #16 May 27, 2004 Quote. I also have read on here of at least one who broke a steering line with I believe under 250 jumps on a canopy And I believe the steering line in question had been shown to have been replaced with the incorrect weight/size line. QuoteWhy is PA now doing the brake lines in dacron if they believe it to not be a problem? Pressure of public perception. There are still a few manufacturers using HMA/Technora control line with no problem. HMA is a far superior product to Vectran. It wears better, and has a longer effective life. QuoteIt doesnt show wear like vectran so you wont know if or when it will break. Vectran shows little to no wear after the first 100-150 jumps.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeeeeeeFly 0 #17 May 27, 2004 Quote Pressure of public perception. There are still a few manufacturers using HMA/Technora control line with no problem. HMA is a far superior product to Vectran. It wears better, and has a longer effective life. OK JP I would like an unbias opinion, since 1. I know your an avid supporter of Precision... 2. you fly a Xaos... In research, we scientist like to have things proven to us. We don't neccessarily take people's word for it unlesss there is DATA supporting the fact... So.... Show me the DATA where Vectran is far less superior to HMA. ~G~ Ohh QuoteVectran shows little to no wear after the first 100-150 jumps. Niether does Spectra or Dacron for that matter... "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #18 May 27, 2004 I am not a "Precision suporter". I do jump one of their products. I also jump a PD canopy lined in Vectran. When the useful life is up on that linest, I will re-line it in HMA?Technora. I have seen real world wear on both line types and controled testing as well. In both situations HMA has exceded the performance of HMA in all aspects other than ease of construction. Most of the weights are so fine it's hard to work with.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #19 May 27, 2004 QuoteAnd I believe the steering line in question had been shown to have been replaced with the incorrect weight/size line. I know of at least 1 person (know him personally) who had just over/under 300 jumps on his xaos and had his HMA brake line snap with no warning. If this happened on landing it may have been the case of yet another xaos pilot in hospital or worse because of unexpected line breakage. QuoteHMA is a far superior product to Vectran. It wears better, and has a longer effective life. I'm sure, but I'd rather be able to tell when I need new lines, not guess. QuoteVectran shows little to no wear after the first 100-150 jumps. True, but I've yet to see or hear about a vectran line snapping in that amount of jumps (there very well may have been, but I have yet to find out such info). My beliefs are that while HMA has less drag, the continous linesets (more lines) add sufficient drag to almost (or maybe entirely?) nullify the speed benefits of the line type. Not facts I can back up, just my thoughts. For now, I'll settle for the vectran as I can't see any advantage other than POTENTIAL lifespan out of the lines sets. When I decided to go ultra HP on the canopy I knew it would require more expense keeping the lines in shape, it's something I won't skimp on until a better solution comes along. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #20 May 27, 2004 QuoteFor now, I'll settle for the vectran as I can't see any advantage other than POTENTIAL lifespan out of the lines sets. When I decided to go ultra HP on the canopy I knew it would require more expense keeping the lines in shape, it's something I won't skimp on until a better solution comes along. This is interesting to me as when vectran hit the market no one questioned it's properties/problems as compared to spectra. I'd rather jump Spectra and it's known problems than Vectran. My personal experience indicates a higher jump:faliure ratio with Vectran than HMA.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeeeeeeFly 0 #21 May 27, 2004 QuoteMy personal experience indicates a higher jump:faliure ratio with Vectran than HMA. Show me the DATA Possibly b/c it has been out longer? ~G~ "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #22 May 27, 2004 QuoteShow me the DATA I don't have any. Nor have you provided any for Vectran. If you like I can contact the manufacturers using HMA and get the results, or you can do a search on here about the properties of the product. QuotePossibly b/c it has been out longer? Makes no difference in a jump vs faliure ratio.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeeeeeeFly 0 #23 May 27, 2004 QuoteI don't have any. Nor have you provided any for Vectran. If you like I can contact the manufacturers using HMA and get the results, or you can do a search on here about the properties of the product. Nice rebuttal... I have actually contacted the manufacturers and others like George at Precision (very helpful) MEL (Master Rigger 1) CSR (company that makes Vectran, HMA, Spectra) and I have found that despite the increase in strength from HMA compared to Vectran, you will lose it the same if not worse than Vectran. They are both very strong fibers, but extremely susceptible to UV radiation. Thus they are working on a coating that can with stand the stress from the slider, opening shock, and UV. Tall order but it seems that skyding seems to simply follow in sailings foot steps. So when new ropes are made for sailing we simply incorporate them into our sport... Thus the invention of Spectra, Vectran, and HMA... ~G~ "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #24 May 27, 2004 Everything your mother didn't tell you about Technora/HMA: http://www.teijin-aramid.com/HP/ENG/tech_frame.htm ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GeeeeeeFly 0 #25 May 27, 2004 Thanks for the commercial add supporting Technora. That's no different than a Pepsi commercial telling me how refreshing it is compared to Coke... ~G~ "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ramon 0 #11 May 27, 2004 Quote One question though; who out there is jumping the VX-X mod on the swooping Tour? Blue Ones, MEL I don't know of any pros (most are sponsored) and I have yet to meet an advanced competitor on one. And it should be noted that Team Xaos and Team Extreme, have modified line trims on some of their canopies such that the behave differently than the production line of xaos27s and vxs. Ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #12 May 27, 2004 Quote( I jump my 79-27 at 4.23/1 ) wow...i thought around 2.2 was the norm high people went to? you must be a big boy Sorry, a little dislexic last night, 2.43/1 with 4 way weights! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #13 May 27, 2004 QuoteUsually made when the canopy is due for a re-line, which is recommended at about 300 to 400 jumps on a Vectran line set,.... The recommended number of jumps on vectran is 400-600 jumps. The 300 to 400 jumps numbers for Vectran replacement were based on information provided by Precision Aerodynamics. I would expect that the numbers may vary depending on the source. QuoteBoth Vectran and Technora(HMA) are UV sensitive with Technora being the most. I have been working with both Vectran and Technora for some time now and have learned a great deal about these two fibers. I have both Technora (340lb.) and Vectran on the shelf in my shop and on my last reline I used Vectran instead of Technora if that tells you anything! George or Chris can provide you with technical data from the manufacturer that refutes this. At the time I wrote the article, I had and had read that data. It was over a year ago though. PA was monitoring canopies being jumped in the west and southwest with HMA (Technora) lines, mostly Nitros, and they were still going strong with 700 to 800 jumps. The lines had been in use in Europe for quite several years and PA was firm in it's re-line recommendations for Technora. My canopy now has another hundred or so jumps on it since the evaluation, the HMA lines still show no wear. I have no technical means for testing/measuring UV degradation, so I'll just have to wait until something fails or 800 jumps, whichever comes first. I don't follow the swoop tour closely but as some one else has said, most of those guys are sponsored so I wouldn'd expect many to jump an Icarus canopy with a PA modification. They do experiment with different line trims. I think the few freelancers on the tour would want to jump a factory canopy with the hopes of picking up that sponsorship when their performance merrits it.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #14 May 27, 2004 Quotethe HMA lines still show no wear. I think that is the problem some people have with HMA. It doesnt show wear like vectran so you wont know if or when it will break. I know of people who wave gone close to 1000 jumps on hma. I also have read on here of at least one who broke a steering line with I believe under 250 jumps on a canopy. I would prefer to be able to see the wear on my lines and change them accordingly. Why is PA now doing the brake lines in dacron if they believe it to not be a problem? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeeeeeeFly 0 #15 May 27, 2004 Jonny's right regarding the HMA and shows of wear. Icarus has a set up in Spain where they test Vectran and HMA on stress simulator where brass and stainless steel gromets slide down the line to replicatethe action of the slider on opening. They have concluded that HMA will suddenly snap while the Vectran begins to show wear. Also I have seen pilots change out there brake lines to Dacron or Vectran just because of the uncertainty of HMA. Also for competition there are a lot of pilots out there that have their sponsors change there lines to HMA for swoop competitions. Though this seems to be a trend I am not saying all pilots do it... ~G~ P.S. Thanks MEL... "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 May 27, 2004 Quote. I also have read on here of at least one who broke a steering line with I believe under 250 jumps on a canopy And I believe the steering line in question had been shown to have been replaced with the incorrect weight/size line. QuoteWhy is PA now doing the brake lines in dacron if they believe it to not be a problem? Pressure of public perception. There are still a few manufacturers using HMA/Technora control line with no problem. HMA is a far superior product to Vectran. It wears better, and has a longer effective life. QuoteIt doesnt show wear like vectran so you wont know if or when it will break. Vectran shows little to no wear after the first 100-150 jumps.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeeeeeeFly 0 #17 May 27, 2004 Quote Pressure of public perception. There are still a few manufacturers using HMA/Technora control line with no problem. HMA is a far superior product to Vectran. It wears better, and has a longer effective life. OK JP I would like an unbias opinion, since 1. I know your an avid supporter of Precision... 2. you fly a Xaos... In research, we scientist like to have things proven to us. We don't neccessarily take people's word for it unlesss there is DATA supporting the fact... So.... Show me the DATA where Vectran is far less superior to HMA. ~G~ Ohh QuoteVectran shows little to no wear after the first 100-150 jumps. Niether does Spectra or Dacron for that matter... "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 May 27, 2004 I am not a "Precision suporter". I do jump one of their products. I also jump a PD canopy lined in Vectran. When the useful life is up on that linest, I will re-line it in HMA?Technora. I have seen real world wear on both line types and controled testing as well. In both situations HMA has exceded the performance of HMA in all aspects other than ease of construction. Most of the weights are so fine it's hard to work with.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #19 May 27, 2004 QuoteAnd I believe the steering line in question had been shown to have been replaced with the incorrect weight/size line. I know of at least 1 person (know him personally) who had just over/under 300 jumps on his xaos and had his HMA brake line snap with no warning. If this happened on landing it may have been the case of yet another xaos pilot in hospital or worse because of unexpected line breakage. QuoteHMA is a far superior product to Vectran. It wears better, and has a longer effective life. I'm sure, but I'd rather be able to tell when I need new lines, not guess. QuoteVectran shows little to no wear after the first 100-150 jumps. True, but I've yet to see or hear about a vectran line snapping in that amount of jumps (there very well may have been, but I have yet to find out such info). My beliefs are that while HMA has less drag, the continous linesets (more lines) add sufficient drag to almost (or maybe entirely?) nullify the speed benefits of the line type. Not facts I can back up, just my thoughts. For now, I'll settle for the vectran as I can't see any advantage other than POTENTIAL lifespan out of the lines sets. When I decided to go ultra HP on the canopy I knew it would require more expense keeping the lines in shape, it's something I won't skimp on until a better solution comes along. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #20 May 27, 2004 QuoteFor now, I'll settle for the vectran as I can't see any advantage other than POTENTIAL lifespan out of the lines sets. When I decided to go ultra HP on the canopy I knew it would require more expense keeping the lines in shape, it's something I won't skimp on until a better solution comes along. This is interesting to me as when vectran hit the market no one questioned it's properties/problems as compared to spectra. I'd rather jump Spectra and it's known problems than Vectran. My personal experience indicates a higher jump:faliure ratio with Vectran than HMA.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeeeeeeFly 0 #21 May 27, 2004 QuoteMy personal experience indicates a higher jump:faliure ratio with Vectran than HMA. Show me the DATA Possibly b/c it has been out longer? ~G~ "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #22 May 27, 2004 QuoteShow me the DATA I don't have any. Nor have you provided any for Vectran. If you like I can contact the manufacturers using HMA and get the results, or you can do a search on here about the properties of the product. QuotePossibly b/c it has been out longer? Makes no difference in a jump vs faliure ratio.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeeeeeeFly 0 #23 May 27, 2004 QuoteI don't have any. Nor have you provided any for Vectran. If you like I can contact the manufacturers using HMA and get the results, or you can do a search on here about the properties of the product. Nice rebuttal... I have actually contacted the manufacturers and others like George at Precision (very helpful) MEL (Master Rigger 1) CSR (company that makes Vectran, HMA, Spectra) and I have found that despite the increase in strength from HMA compared to Vectran, you will lose it the same if not worse than Vectran. They are both very strong fibers, but extremely susceptible to UV radiation. Thus they are working on a coating that can with stand the stress from the slider, opening shock, and UV. Tall order but it seems that skyding seems to simply follow in sailings foot steps. So when new ropes are made for sailing we simply incorporate them into our sport... Thus the invention of Spectra, Vectran, and HMA... ~G~ "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #24 May 27, 2004 Everything your mother didn't tell you about Technora/HMA: http://www.teijin-aramid.com/HP/ENG/tech_frame.htm ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeeeeeeFly 0 #25 May 27, 2004 Thanks for the commercial add supporting Technora. That's no different than a Pepsi commercial telling me how refreshing it is compared to Coke... ~G~ "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
