deurich2003 0 #1 March 24, 2004 Hopefull this post will sound somewhat intelligent... The point and focus of this thread is to get input from others who have more swooping experience than myself regarding making turns too high onto final. I took a Scott Miller canopy skills class last year at CPI on my Sabre 2 170...when asked if he could help me become a safe swooper he replied "I can't do that because swooping isn't safe." That comment hasn't held back my curiosity and ambition to learn but it has made me approach high performance landings with a lot of intensity such as one might have dodging bullets. Scott did extend some swoop info and taught the safety aspects of the ground carve or "swoop avoidance turn" as he stated...he comes off very safety conscious...no bull shit Subsequently I did the double fronts, the 45 degree and the 90's....all done at altitude before beginning the approach near the ground for final. I have since downsized to a sabre 2 150 (1.4) and completed the same progression adding on now 135's and 180's. I have learned that I like no wind days very much as the canopy flies a lot different in 10-15 mile per hours winds (which unfortunately spring has consistently brought us)...but regardless of the wind I tend to err on the high side... When I set up for a 180 degree turn I approach the entry point always a bit high and before actually getting there start to slightly speed up my canopy by pulling on one riser (left riser for left hand pattern). This initial speed up doesn't turn the canopy as I'm just barely hanging on the left riser....then as the entry point gets closer I start a carve and gradually increase that carve to what I'll call the point of commitment....this is when I see the altitude where I make the finally smooth input to the left riser to make the remaining degree turn neccessary to swoop parallel to the beer line (the "here comes the ground" portion). AT THIS POINT SOMETIMES I'M A BIT HIGH....What I have been doing is continuing to carve the left riser until the canopy plains inself out just above the ground (I can keep the canopy in the dive without changing much direction or going to double fronts). After the canopy plains out I haven't given it any toggles but gradually apply toggles as the speed spleads off for landing....it seems like this works pretty well(safe and maintains speed) but again I'm looking for other's experiences. Do other's correct this "high jacking" senario in the same way? Any input would be appreciated...especially your thought progression while you learned to swoop vs. what you know now. Never Give up! Never Surrender! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 March 24, 2004 QuoteI have learned that I like no wind days very much as the canopy flies a lot different in 10-15 mile per hours winds The canopy does not fly any different. Your perception of what the canopy is doing in relation to the ball of dirt you're trying to land on is what's different. QuoteWhen I set up for a 180 degree turn I approach the entry point always a bit high and before actually getting there start to slightly speed up my canopy by pulling on one riser (left riser for left hand pattern). This initial speed up doesn't turn the canopy as I'm just barely hanging on the left riser.... The only way I can see you pulling on only one riser and NOT inducing a turn (even a slow one) is if you are harness shifting to compensate.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deurich2003 0 #3 March 24, 2004 The canopy does not fly any different. Your perception of what the canopy is doing in relation to the ball of dirt you're trying to land on is what's different. Hey Diablo dude...that's cool...but not really what I'm looking for here. ***The only way I can see you pulling on only one riser and NOT inducing a turn (even a slow one) is if you are harness shifting to compensate. Again...you're right...congratulations How 'bout a response re: the high jack? Never Give up! Never Surrender! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #4 March 24, 2004 QuoteThe point and focus of this thread is to get input from others who have more swooping experience than myself regarding making turns too high onto final. Hmmmmmm... QuoteQuoteThe only way I can see you pulling on only one riser and NOT inducing a turn (even a slow one) is if you are harness shifting to compensate. Again...you're right...congratulations How 'bout a response re: the high jack? I seriously doubt you're gonna see much more response when you reply like that to people who respond. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #5 March 24, 2004 QuoteHow 'bout a response re: the high jack? What exactly is a "high jack"? If you are refering to you continualy comming out of a turn high, then what you need is repetitive practice. as slowly learn how to co-ordinate the timing of your turn with the rapidly aporching ball of dirt. I don't think you'll find anything online that will help more than practice. Realize that you can change the riser input throughout the dive to make the site picture what you want. Carving turns make this easier as you can see the difference from your desired path over a longer period of time and thus make input changes to correct it. Simplified point: get out there and jump. Find a mentor at your DZ.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #6 March 24, 2004 I'm not sure I understand what your problem is. If you're hooking it too high, you need to practice more. If you do notice mid-turn that you are too high, you can A) reduce the turn rate by letting the riser up somewhat. This will give you more time in the turn, and let you get around to where you want to be, OR, B) it's kinda like the first one, but if you're extra high, you can let off of the riser entirely, let the canopy dive in straight line to where you are the right alti to start a new turn that will finish the first one. In either case, you will use up more sky, as your final will go from a thin column of air, to a big oval shaped thingy, so traffic clearence becomes as issue. If you have to use plan B, keep in mind your canopy will be flying faster than normal inbetween the two turns so you will get to your #2 turn in point quickly, and the canopy will be more sensitive to inputs (such as your second turn). Here's a thought, if you are new to swooping, and having consistency problems, why are you swooping the beer line? Every beer line I've ever seen is the closest possible point to spectators and buildings, and is generally the target for more experienced jumpers. Do you think it's wise to 'learn' a skill you have been told is not safe in a crowded area? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaerock 1 #7 March 24, 2004 C) Pull the other riser down while holding down the first riser if you are too high, this slows the turn but maintains the dive. -Rory Quote I'm not sure I understand what your problem is. If you're hooking it too high, you need to practice more. If you do notice mid-turn that you are too high, you can A) reduce the turn rate by letting the riser up somewhat. This will give you more time in the turn, and let you get around to where you want to be, OR, B) it's kinda like the first one, but if you're extra high, you can let off of the riser entirely, let the canopy dive in straight line to where you are the right alti to start a new turn that will finish the first one. In either case, you will use up more sky, as your final will go from a thin column of air, to a big oval shaped thingy, so traffic clearence becomes as issue. If you have to use plan B, keep in mind your canopy will be flying faster than normal inbetween the two turns so you will get to your #2 turn in point quickly, and the canopy will be more sensitive to inputs (such as your second turn). Here's a thought, if you are new to swooping, and having consistency problems, why are you swooping the beer line? Every beer line I've ever seen is the closest possible point to spectators and buildings, and is generally the target for more experienced jumpers. Do you think it's wise to 'learn' a skill you have been told is not safe in a crowded area? You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #8 March 30, 2004 Well, let me start off by saying that I'm very much a newbie as well. Take what I'm saying with extreme caution, and hopefully someone will quickly correct me if I say something wrong... I was having the same problem with my Sabre2 (loaded at 1.5) until recently. My problem was that I was pulling a front riser down too slow, then slowly pulling the other front until both risers were even, to lose altitute - front riser pressure was too much to hold, and I would usually end up overshooting my target. Mentors told me to pull my front riser faster and harder , which brought me more horizontal with the canopy, and I've found that I can make adjustments with the other riser before pressure builds up. The more horizontal I am with the canopy, the easier it is to make dive angle and heading adjustments. If I'm high, I pull the opposite riser to lose alti as soon as possible. Once my canopy enters it's recovery arc, there's no fighting the riser pressure, so I've learned to make adjustments early on, and let the canopy plane itself out. This may not be guidance for an 'efficient' swoop, but it's how I've dealt with poor setups as I'm learning. Comments and criticism welcome. Just out of curiousity, does you're Sabre2 seem to dive faster/longer on days with stronger winds? I find myself digging out of dives EVERY time it's windy... my friends say they've never noticed it on their Velocity's, but that could be due to a number of design differences. Dunno, maybe it's an illusion... JShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #9 March 30, 2004 ***Mentors told me to pull my front riser faster and harder , which brought me more horizontal with the canopy, ------------------------------------------- And -------------------------------------------- *** I find myself digging out EVERY time it's windy ==================================== Did you really type these two statements in the same post? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeiber 0 #10 March 30, 2004 With winds at 20+ (not that often), the canopy seems to react totally different in a dive. As I said before, this could be an illusion, I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking.... The other 95% of the time, when winds are 15 or less, the canopy *seems* to recover normally. Unfortunately, try as I might, I can't control the weather, so my experience with high wind approaches is limited to what mother nature provides. Forgive the 'EVERY' exaggeration, I wanted to emphasize the point that I feel it's more than a coincidence. Don't take this too literally.... To answer your question, yes, I did discuss two completely different situations in one message. My question is NOT, 'Why do I continue to dive while holding my risers on a windy day?' Duh... When I let off the risers, the canopy doesn't seem to recover as fast with a strong headwinds. As a result, I'm going to toggles at a point where I normally don't need to. My ideas are this: 1) My airspeed is still high, compared to a much lower groundspeed. The lack of groundspeed is creating an illusion, and I'm holding my risers a little longer than I should. 2) The headwind is pushing against the top of the canopy, slowing the natural recovery. 3) It's pure coincidence that I've had bad approaches in the higher wind, and there's no relevance to wind and the canopy's flight characteristics. DiabloPilot, I'm curious to hear your perspective. JShhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #11 March 30, 2004 the canopy does not know how hard the wind is blowing (only if it is turbulent). It is either psychological, or it is pilot error (it is more difficult to set up in conditions that you are not used to, you may be getting low), or you tend to turn more gradually on low wind days and really snap it on higher wind days. downward rotors off of objects can definitley keep the canopy in a dive a little longer and so it is more dangerous to do a hard snap with a steep dive in those conditions. probably better to do a grdual carve to maintain the prospect of recovery and just learn to be more accurate in your carve. just my 2 centsramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #12 March 31, 2004 Quote1) My airspeed is still high, compared to a much lower groundspeed. The lack of groundspeed is creating an illusion, and I'm holding my risers a little longer than I should. True. Quote2) The headwind is pushing against the top of the canopy, slowing the natural recovery. Not a chance. Quote3) It's pure coincidence that I've had bad approaches in the higher wind, and there's no relevance to wind and the canopy's flight characteristics. Probably.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
