TB99 0 #1 November 24, 2003 This is for anyone who is looking to figure out how to flat turn! Hooknswoop and I combined efforts to make this. Please, if there are any questions about anything, ASK! A flat turn is basically a turn you can make with losing virtually no altitude (or very little I should say). Flat turns allow you to fly safely when approaching an area of congested canopies or whenever you are in need of turning the canopy with the least loss of altitude. They are very useful for changing your direction low to the ground in an emergency situation to avoid a previously unseen obstacle or a sudden change in the landing area. Having previous experience with flat turns is essential for using this maneuver near the ground. Performing a descending turn close to the ground can kill you. If you do a normal toggle turn, you can easily see that you dive and lose altitude and pick up vertical speed. Even a small 45 degree turn low to the ground can do a lot of damage. Next time you're up high (well above 1000ft), and you're just flying around, bleeding altitude in your holding area, or "playground," try out these flat turns. It's really, REALLY easy to do. Start by smoothly flying with both toggles at half brakes. By equally pulling both toggles down between your shoulders and chest you can slow the parachute’s forward speed by approximately 50%. The farther the toggles are equally pulled, the more forward speed is diminished in straight flight. This is called brakes. Once you're flying around in brakes (which is greatly reducing your rate of decent), gently ease up on one side of the toggles, only a little bit. You'll find yourself doing a turn, but not losing much altitude. If you initiate a turn by pulling one toggle further, it is possible to stall at least one side of the parachute in an over rotation. This could possibly result in the canopy spinning into line twist that could potentially be uncontrollable and require a cut away and reserve activation. It is for this reason we practice above 1,000 feet and practice 90° flat turns by raising the opposite toggle. So basically, it's just holding in half-deep brakes and easing up ever so slightly one side. Once again, practice these nice and high, see what they feel like. Look at your altimeter as a reference to see how much altitude you lose. Eventually, you can practice doing flat turns in your pattern and such. You may need them one day!! Also, I highly encourage students to talk to your jumpmasters about this as well!! I am in no way an instructor, and would love for them to tell you all about this personally. Just use this as a general guideline, but please let JMs teach you. Please post questions/comments/concerns! Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyedivr 0 #2 November 24, 2003 I find myself doing this often waiting for traffic to clear. good heads up.my power is beyond your understanding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OzoneJunkie 0 #3 November 24, 2003 You may want to mention/get into the details of what to do after the flat turn. If you are low, you may not have sufficient altitude to allow the canopy to return to full flight before flaring, as your canopy can move forward (in relation to your body). In this case, it may be safer to continue to your flare point in 1/2 brakes, and make the flare from there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TB99 0 #4 November 24, 2003 I am cross-posting Scott Miller's post on this subject that was posted in the S&T forum. Hope ya don't mind, Scott! QuoteI'm glad to see TB99, Hooknswoop, billvon, and others continue the effort to educate people about flat turns. Information about flat turns has been available for years, but unfortunately many skydivers still do not get exposed to this information. EVERY skydiver should learn how to do them correctly, practice them frequently, and be able to do one any time it becomes necessary. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By equally pulling both toggles down between your shoulders and chest you can slow the parachute’s forward speed by approximately 50%. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This can vary depending on canopy size, type, and wing loading. It's more important to realize that flying in 1/2 brakes will significantly reduce the rate of descent on most canopies. Since you are descending more slowly, you will have more time to make a turn. As several people have mentioned, flat turns from 1/2 brakes (chest level) can safely be done by smoothly letting one toggle up, pushing one down, or by doing both at the same time. We should practice all of these methods and learn how the canopy responds to each one. If you are flying in 1/2 brakes and pull a toggle down very quickly, or pull the toggle down as far as you can, you might stall one side of the canopy and get line twists, but you shouldn't be moving the toggles that far or that fast, anyway. If you are practicing flat turns from 1/2 brakes and making smooth, controlled toggle movements, the risk of stalling or getting line twists is very, very minimal. It's also a good idea to practice the method billvon recommends: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...starting a flat turn by pulling down one toggle then _immediately_ following through with the other one. If you go to half brakes to start the turn you lose some of that speed (and available lift)... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On most canopies, pulling both toggles down causes an increase in lift (lower rate of descent) at first, followed quickly by a decrease in forward speed. This may be just what you need in some cases. Practicing all of these suggested methods will prepare you to use whatever type of flat turn works best for a particular situation. Also, keep in mind that you may or may not have enough altitude to let the toggles back up after making a flat turn. If you are at, or just above, your normal flare altitude, and still in 1/2 brakes, letting the toggles up may cause the canopy surge toward the ground. It may be better to flare from 1/2 brakes without letting the toggles up, and do a PLF. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IMO, an even better way to make a reduced-altitude-loss turn is by using rear risers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Turning with rear risers does not decrease your rate of descent as much as turning in brakes, and will not allow you to make as "flat" of a turn. Rigging65's "changing lanes" analogy is valid, to an extent, but sometimes turning with the least amount of altitude loss is your main concern. We shouldn't be "tailgating" each other under canopy, anyway. You should be able to make a flat turn if necessary without another jumper running into your rear bumper. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...and since rear risers turns don't dive a canopy like toggles do, a panic turn with rear risers is less likely to kill you than a panic turn with toggles... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is true on some canopies, to a certain degree, but other canopies dive significantly in a back riser turn. The idea behind practicing flat turns is to train yourself to react correctly instead of making a panic turn. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also keep in mind that while this is a good way to turn low, often you don't have to. If you're going to land downwind on a grassy landing area, it's often better to just do that rather than try a flat turn at 50 feet. (billvon) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Avoid the obstacle early on so you don't have to avoid it latter on..." (rigging65) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These points should definitely not be lost in this discussion. Flat turns can get you out of trouble, but it's best to learn how to stay out of trouble in the first place. - Scott Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #5 November 27, 2003 I've been following these flat turn discussions with great interest and using flat turns, both for practice above 1000 ft and once or twice bleow that to set up for final. I've been using the method of pulling both toggles down chest high and then letting up a bit on the opposite side toggle to make the turn. It works quite nicely. My question has to do with the suggestion that in a tight spot, you can supposedly pull a toggle down from full open flight and then quickly pull the other toggle down to match, so that you get a quick turn and then flatten the canopy out of its dive. I've tried it just a few times up high, and as yet don't dare try it near the ground. Is this really a recommended way of making a flat turn, or is it more of an "oops - oh shit" way of correcting for a panic turn too close to the ground ? I'm thinking thhat a lot of these flat or else unfortunate panic turns occur in near collision situations, where somebody cuts you off on final. The flat turn not only keeps your rate of descent way down - or even reduces it - but keeps your body from swinging out like a pendulum nearly as much. Also I'm thinking that just going into the brakes to start the turn might help to "pop" you up, floating you up out of a collision course, as well as reducing speed and giving you a safer configuration for your turn - since we are flying in 3 dimensions. But I haven't heard nearly enough yet about pulling down one toggle and then the other to be persuaded that it's safe and would appreciate more input on this. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #6 November 27, 2003 From what you describe***pull a toggle down from full open flight and then quickly pull the other toggle down to match, so that you get a quick turn and then flatten Will initially dive the canopy as if iniating a [naughty naughty]toggle hook,then yes if you pull on the opposite toggle to match,the canopy will level/possibly stall if intiate TOO much imput on both toggles. Turning the canopy LOW to the GROUND with TOGGLES is BAD with the exception of FLAT TURNS..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spike 0 #7 November 28, 2003 Yep, just to second that. Rapidly pulling one toggle down and then quickly following by pulling the other toggle down is NOT the correct way to initiate a flat turn. Doing this will induce pendulum and instability close to the ground. You start a flat turn from straight flight in medium brakes. So if your in full glide before you can start a flat turn you have to go to brakes on both toggles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #8 November 30, 2003 Thank you Spike & Trigger. I didn't think pulling down one toggle and then the other was such a good idea, especially near the ground. It's only recently that I've seen suggestions to do this in these forums. It's either dangerous misinformation, or else the posts I'd read were badly enough written so as to be confusing. I'm trying to internalize a procedure whereby I'll reflexively pull BOTH my toggles down if I'm cut off near the ground and then make whatever turn is necessary by lifting opposite toggle just a bit. A while back Aggie Dave also made a good observation that you only need to turn just a bit to avoid most collisions, you don't need to turn 90+ degrees. So half brakes, which will "float" you and just a little flat turn, should do the job rather nicely. People need to internalize this drill the same way they internalize reaching for their handles if their opening looks like shit. I don't think any of us has to even think about grabbing handles, well we shouldn't even have to think about pulling toggles to chest and making a small flat turn when we're cut off - because it will happen to all of us sooner or later and more often than a malfunction. Anyway, thanks again for your input. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FOF 6 #9 November 30, 2003 QuoteI didn't think pulling down one toggle and then the other was such a good idea, especially near the ground... It's either dangerous misinformation, or else the posts I'd read were badly enough written so as to be confusing. It's not a bad idea at all to practice making flat turns this way, along with all of the other ways mentioned, at a high altitude. It's good to know how your canopy reacts to each type of input. It's a very bad idea to practice any maneuver close to the ground unless you already know how your canopy will react. Quote...I'll reflexively pull BOTH my toggles down if I'm cut off near the ground and then make whatever turn is necessary by lifting opposite toggle just a bit... you only need to turn just a bit to avoid most collisions, you don't need to turn 90+ degrees. So half brakes, which will "float" you and just a little flat turn, should do the job rather nicely. All of this is true, and are some of the reasons why I primarily teach people the "brakes first, then turn" method. However, practicing the "turn first, then brakes" method prepares you for a situation where you have already initiated a turn, then find you need to flatten it out. It's obviously best to avoid this type of situation altogether, but it doesn't hurt to prepare for it by practicing up high. QuotePeople need to internalize this drill the same way they internalize reaching for their handles if their opening looks like shit... we shouldn't even have to think about pulling toggles to chest and making a small flat turn when we're cut off... This is really the key to the whole discussion. Reading about flat turns in this forum, or hearing about them somewhere else, doesn't teach you how to do one. Practicing them once or twice under canopy doesn't prepare you to do one in an emergency. You need to experiment with them up high until you have a very good understanding of how your canopy responds to them, then continue practicing until they become automatic. Good things to point out, tbrown. - Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
