Maxx 1 #1 December 23, 2004 Hi, I've been to the tunnel for the first time this year (skyventure Orlando). I did 60 minutes and concentrated on freeflying. I had a coach and progressed through a learning-program.. I learned the belly-basics in the tunnel and did some back-flying. All went well and it was great fun! But when it came to sitflying my progression suddenly stopped. I have about 150 sitflying only jumps and I am able to do anything I want in the sky (docks, transitions, slow/fast falling, carving..) But in the tunnel it felt completly different.. My normal sit-position just didn't work in the tunnel. The best i got was some hovering for about 3-4 seconds. I felt completly stupid because for 30 minutes I did nothing else than sit/standing on the crate or on my inctructors knees.. My instructor said my sit-position looked very good. He said it is just a matter of time (or $ in other words) until I actually can fly my sit.. Here are my questions: 1. Is it normal for an experienced sitflyer that flying in the tunnel is a whole different deal? 2. Is it worth to spend another high amount of $ to learn to sitfly in the tunnel? Will it improve my (already working) sitflying in the sky? 3. Is there a special trick or something I could try the next time? I found out that bringing my lower legs to the side helped a little bit, because the air caught more surface then.. Thanks for your help and a merry Christmas! Max Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #2 December 23, 2004 Last time I was sitflying in Orlando - there wasnt enough ooopmh to get me off the net much (unless I used alot more back than my normal sky sit position) Found it frustrating a little - but thats what I get for eating too many cakes and chocolate Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scooterskydives 0 #3 December 23, 2004 Hey Maxx, I have been trying to learn to sit fly in the tunnel and I have spent probally 40 minutes or so. I'm learning more and more each time I enter the tunnel. although the last time I went, one of the tunnel instructors whom was not even in the tunnel chamber with me, just watching from a distance gave me some much needed advice. He told me even though I am still on the net, doesn't mean I'm not flying. I spent a whole lot of time going "boing...boing...boing..." off the net. and I thought why can't I stay up...very fusterating. any how, just learn to sit on the net stable and feel the air flow in the right body position and when the time comes you'll lift off. Now, I'm no tunnel instructor but it made alot of sense when they told me that.... Also, be prepared for some REALLY SORE upper body muscles. I can sit fly pretty good in freefall but we don't have wall up there. good luck with itIf God wanted man to stay on the ground. He would of put roots on them instead of feet. loving life GO-N-UP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #4 December 24, 2004 LEAN BACK!!!!!!!! Your sit flying in the air will improve 10 fold with the tunnel if you have the right technique and coaches for the air and those to help you with the transition. I hear tunnel to sky is much easier. I have almost 8 hrs in there because of a skydiving accident so I'll let you know how my transition went. Feel free to pm me. My advice is that of my boyfriends who has too many hours in the tunnel to count. I suck but know some stuff. I would never pass on advice of my own just what my bf tells me that worked for me. If you need anything please contact me and I can get you hooked up with him (and I for some tunnel time in Orlando) to get you on your way!Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #5 December 25, 2004 I agree with Paige. I've watched a lot of sit flying training in the tunnel. Those people that keep their backs straight up and down usually end up just going boing, boing, boing... I think I've read that sit flyers fall in the 145-165mph range. Here in Orlando, you'll only get about 135mph max in the tunnel, so most people have to catch some lift on their back to get off the net. Arch and lean back into the wind a bit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #6 December 26, 2004 Quote Here in Orlando, you'll only get about 135mph max in the tunnel, AVION------>The speeds are greater than 135 if you are cleared for the higher and just about everyone needs to lean back to catch lift. MAXX-------> Take advice from people that have a lot of tunnel time and are coaches, don't take advice from those who have seen sit fly coaching in the tunnel. I'm not a coach but I'm not passing on wrong info. Need help PM needtojump.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #7 December 26, 2004 OK Paige, you win. Maxx, for you own safety ignore my advice. Do what Miss "I'm not a coach but I'm not passing on wrong info" says and lean back Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #8 December 26, 2004 QuoteDo Miss "I'm not a coach but I'm not passing on wrong info" says and lean back And what's that supposed to mean????????? It's not about winning. It's about giving advice when you are not qualified. I'm not telling him to do anything except talk to someone who is qualified. If he takes my adivce without asking anyone, then that is his stupidity (whether its my advice or yours he takes, not the issue, he needs to ask those who are qualified not us). If you are passing on advice you need to qualify it (or fill in your profile) so people know something about your flying skills or tunnel skills. Don't pass out advice you are not qualified to give. Notice how I make a disclaimer about my advice and give the name of someone who knows what they are doing to get in contact with. I claim to know nothing.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #9 December 26, 2004 That means I have as much right to offer my response to his question as you do, and I am kinda offended and surprised that you jumped on my case for agreeing with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #10 December 26, 2004 Avion, please don't take this the wrong way, but Paige was just looking out for Maxx. It seems smart to let a more experienced skydiver and tunnel flyer, hopefully a coach, address the questions that come up. How would you feel if someone followed your advice, and it was the wrong advice for them? What if they were subsequently hurt? Personally, I lurk ALL the forums, but I usually only post in Bonfire or Women's Forum because I am a baby flyer and in no position to give advice to the more experienced flyers. I honestly feel that we (newer jumpers/flyers) should allow the instructors/coaches/highly experienced skydivers/flyers the opportunity to answer the technical questions that come up. You are welcome to join us in Bonfire for more light-hearted discussions/talk or to just chat with people in the skydiving community. Btw, it really is a small community...we all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #11 December 26, 2004 What Rosa said. I'm not trying to jump your bones but neither of us is qualified to give out coaching advice. You can really put someone in a bad position speaking above your qualifications. I have a considerable amount of time in the tunnel compared to you (and most) and I am not qualified to give advice. I have 8 hours in there. I'm just saying that its not the best idea for us to be giving out advice without giving sources that really know what they are doing.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #12 December 26, 2004 Thanks for clearing that up Rosa. Could have not found better words myself. Thanks for understanding what I was trying to get across.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NeedToJump 0 #13 December 26, 2004 Avion - it looks like you mean well and are just trying to help, but there's a big difference between seeing how someone is flying and actually being able to do it. There are a lot of people giving advice in these forums and it's very difficult for newbies to sort out what is good advice and what might get them hurt or even killed. I'd suggest filling in the rest of your profile and lurking the topical forums for a while before giving out advice. No matter how much you've read or seen you don't have the experience to know what you're talking about. Please don't take this personally, we're all just trying to look out for everyone's safety. Now to answer the original post: Quote1. Is it normal for an experienced sitflyer that flying in the tunnel is a whole different deal? Yes. Due to the slower airspeed and the fact that there are walls, the tunnel magnifies any "faults" in your flying (in any orientation.) However, the biggest reason people find such a huge difference between the tunnel and the sky is because the sky let's you get away with a poor body position whereas the tunnel does not. Quote2. Is it worth to spend another high amount of $ to learn to sitfly in the tunnel? Will it improve my (already working) sitflying in the sky? That's entirely up to you. The tunnel is very expensive but you will learn a tremendous amount from it. Do you need the tunnel to learn to fly well? No. It will definitely help you out if you want it to though. If you want to use the tunnel solely as a tool to improve your sky flying then I'd suggest getting your self a good coach to work with you both in the tunnel and the sky. This will allow you to directly transfer what you learn in the tunnel to your flying in the sky. Quote3. Is there a special trick or something I could try the next time? I found out that bringing my lower legs to the side helped a little bit, because the air caught more surface then.. As has been said already, lean back! Make sure that your head is back as well. You want your arm from your shoulder to your elbow to be even with your body or slightly forward. Also try bending your elbows so your arms are not completely straight, this will make things a bit easier on your arms and give you more to work with. The best "trick" however would be to get a coach who can show you all of this and work with you through your progression. Good luck and have fun in there! Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #14 December 26, 2004 Well, do you all think that Paulipod lacks sufficient experience/qualifications to give advise/information about how to get off the net sitflying in the tunnel? He mentioned that to get off the net he had to use his back. Paige said lean back and added a disclaimer as to her worthiness to give advise. I said lean back and explained why. Then Paige added a disclaimer as to my worthiness to give advise. I find it interesting that you all are knocking me because of my lack of experience rather than disagreeing with the advise or information I offered. Rather than saying my advise or information is wrong, you're saying I'm wrong for offering it. On of the things I have noticed about accepted/certified coaches is that most of them say something different. It gets confusing when one coach tells you your doing something wrong when your doing it the way another coach told you to. It all comes down to information, understanding what is going on, and finding out what works for you. Some of my best tips have come from people, who after watching me work on something, just walk up and say, try this... I gather information from books, coaches, skydivers, tunnelrats, forums, and watching others for hours and hours in order to be educated. Hopefully, so that I can enjoy the activity and prevent you all from reading about something stupid I did. As to my bio, I would enter that I have zero jumps and over an hour and a half in the tunnel belly and back flying, if it let me do so. I suggested an air time profile entry in the in the feedback forum, apparently in vain. In a couple of months I'll add that I have one year in the sport when the time comes. Prehaps you feel more comfortable with me, if I lied and made myself appear more experienced. I have yet to try sitflying, although it is next on my progession, so I have been paying particular attention to its coaching. I have been lurking here for some time, and have participated in a number of discussions earlier this year mostly in the incidents forum as cybervagrant in order to understand what can go wrong. I have since changed my ID because I like this one better. I posted this response in spirit of discussion. I presume, although avoid expecting, that he will take my advise and everybody elses, think about it, and discuss it with his instructor the next time he goes to the tunnel. Ari is one of the most experienced people here. Paige has hours and hours in the tunnel. Paulipod has his own tunnel!!! In summary: The more experienced people said lean back. The less experieced person said lean back and explained why. Then the more experieced people told the less experience person he was wrong. You simple question seems to have brought another issue into view. I have offered my input on his question, I explained what to do and why. I have explained honestly my experience. My final thoughts for you, Maxx, is: There appears to be a prejudice here concerning experience, as exemplified by the people harping about my level of experience rather than the particulars of my response. That implies obedience without question may be expected from those people with more experience. In appropriate situations, like in the air, that obedience should be given, however in a forum of discussion, like this, it can be counter productive. Use some common sense: Avoid ruling out completely someones advise, just because they have less experience they could be right, and avoid taking without question someones advise just because they have more experience, they could be wrong. After all its your life. I hope I have given you some fuel for thought and helped you understand what's going on with sitflying and lift in the tunnel. Blue Skies... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paulipod 0 #15 December 26, 2004 Hey, Dont drag me into your bun-fighting Besides, my advice would be to go to a tunnel with enough power to lift you.... (like ours!) lol Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #16 December 26, 2004 Really my point is, what their saying about qualifications would make alot more sense if I was providing conflicting advise. How much experience does one need to say the airspeed in the tunnel is less than a sitflyer usually falls at in open air and so you have to catch some lift on your back to get off the net? I feel like, their making it out that I am instructing a 20 jump wonder how swoop with a double front riser dive. I said the same thing they did, and they told me I was wrong to do so. I just have trouble with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #17 December 27, 2004 First I wanna say that this is taking the wrong tone and I did not intend it to be like this. I am simply looking out for those who read the forums and take the advice. Please note that I have considered your position and thought about it with an open mind. This post is in no way shape or form a personal attack because many people on here offer advice they are not qualified to do so. I'm simply concerned about that and trying to make sure people know what adivce to take and what to filter through a coach. I think it should all be filtered through a coach regardless of who gives the advice. As you stated everyone learns different. Certain saying or phrasing could spark someone's lightbulb and get them flying better. When offering advice maybe just say, check with a coach but this is what I found/saw working for people. I'm still skeptical about the "saw" people doing. I'll explain that later. On to your post. QuoteWell, do you all think that Paulipod lacks sufficient experience/qualifications to give advise/information about how to get off the net sitflying in the tunnel? You cannot compare the experience you have to that of Paulipod. That is like night and day. That would be like comparing myself to someone who has amassed tunnel time and jumps. You simply can't compare things without a common base. Paulipod has his profile filled out and works in close conjunction with a tunnel as you stated (and is in his profile) he has his own. There are spaces to put in your tunnel time in your profile, there does not have to be a specific place for it. Anything can go in a sig line, which might be a good place for it if you are going to offer advice. That way it is with every post you make and can be known to anyone. QuoteThere appears to be a prejudice here concerning experience, as exemplified by the people harping about my level of experience rather than the particulars of my response. Yes there is a prejudice concerning experience levels and rightfully so. This is about the particulars of your response, if you have never done something, you have no idea on what needs to be done to correct a problem or offer advice that is safe and reasonable. Offering advice and assuming people will check with a coach is a bad idea. People read these forums, esp. newbies such as yourself (and I), and take the word as oath. Not saying we take advice blindly (no assumption about you is made here, please don't take it that way) but others may. That is their problem and not yours but you and others may be adding fuel to the fire. We are simply trying to keep everyone safe and keep information out there that is passed on by coaches who know, practice, and execute these tips daily (or at the very least frequently). I agree that the more someone knows the more tools they have. You are absolutely right. I also agree that coaches use different sayings or words to describe flying tips and tricks. I have experienced what you are talking about and def. agree that the more questions you ask the better off you are. The problem is we can't assume everyone will ask those questions of the appropriate people. Maybe you should not offer advice on something you've never done. I've seen plenty of people shoot a gun but I'm not going to give instructions to someone at a shooting range on gun safety and operation. QuoteRather than saying my advise or information is wrong, you're saying I'm wrong for offering it. Pretty sure that's what I was getting at when I said you are not qualified to offer that advice. Didn't say the advice was wrong, you are just not qualified to be speaking on a subject you have never experienced. If you have never done something than you are in the wrong for trying to pass on advice regarding it. Again, shooting/gun example. If you have tried sit flying and leaning back worked you could throw in your 2 cents by saying, leaning back worked for me but check with your coach before trying this. I want EVERYONE to be safe in the air and the tunnel as do you, I assume. The dangers that we face in the tunnel and the air can have the same consequences; broken bones, busted spirits, and lives taken. By offering advice you are not qualified to give, you endanger others who may read your post and not check with the proper people before trying something new. Point and case: If you haven't done it, don't give advice on it. If you haven't flown a canopy, don't give canopy control, swooping, accuracy tricks, or wing loading advice. You don't have the experience or know how to offer safe advice past face value or what you read in a manual if you have never had the experience. "You" is not directed at just Avion, but everyone on the forums that offers advice they are not qualified to give. He is not the only one by any means, again please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to pick on Avion just trying to keep the advice on this forum to that of coaches who have waaaay more expierence than my insignificant 8 hours. Yes, 8 hours in the tunnel is insignificant compared to the people who are qualified to give advice. Just food for thought. No malicious intent intended.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #18 December 27, 2004 Maybe we should form a group of people to get a place in the profile or next to your avitar for your tunnel time. I know I would love to have that in there to help keep people safe. Again, please don't take this the wrong way. I've seen bad advice given (not saying yours by any means we already know you stated what we did) and taken without regard or reference to a coach. Unfortunately bad things happened and will continue to if we (those who aren't coaches) don't qualify our advice.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #19 December 27, 2004 QuoteBesides, my advice would be to go to a tunnel with enough power to lift you.... (like ours!) lol Or just learn how to fly your body fast or slow I'm sure you know your shit and can fly in anythingTunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #20 December 27, 2004 Yes, I agree the tone here has gone in an unintended direction. It's just that I knew the answer for this question, and the reasoning behind that answer, having seen many beginning sitfliers experience that same problem during coaching and the instructors response. Whether I should have offered this information without having first hand experience with it is another matter. It seemed reasonable to me in this case. Rather than comparing myself to anyone, I was tring to say the experienced people, who should know what to do here, say lean back. I just tried to explain why, which is something the the experienced people hinted at but neglected to do fully. As you might preceive, I like to understand and explain things in depth. Many times I have been fustrated by an authority who provides an answer without a reason. Prehaps they lack the knowledge of the reason, prehaps they lack the skill to articulate it. In any case, I like to know the answer and the reason. That by the way has fustrated many of my teachers, it seems to shake their sense of security Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #21 December 27, 2004 Quotewe all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. True, true. I just met PMS#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #22 December 28, 2004 I understand the frustration with the lack of description for responses. Maybe send a PM to someone more qualified to offer an explination. It might also be beneficial to tell them to ask a qualified coach who they trust and respect if you don't have a reference for them. I know I try to stay away from things I have never done if I have no first hand knowledge on a subject.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #23 December 28, 2004 QuoteQuotewe all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. True, true. I just met PMS#1 Cool. Brooke is a great person and awesome freeflyer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #24 December 28, 2004 I claim to know NOTHING! --------------------------------------- BTW here's how to say that in german and french: Ich weiss das ich nichts weiss. Je sais que je sais rein. They're a couple of my favorite sayings LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #25 December 29, 2004 Foreign languages are beyond me. Unfortunately I don't speak any but that's pretty cool if they really mean that. You should talk wtih a tunnel instructor and if you are ready, start sittin' in the tunnel instead of just watching everyone else Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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Paige 0 #6 December 26, 2004 Quote Here in Orlando, you'll only get about 135mph max in the tunnel, AVION------>The speeds are greater than 135 if you are cleared for the higher and just about everyone needs to lean back to catch lift. MAXX-------> Take advice from people that have a lot of tunnel time and are coaches, don't take advice from those who have seen sit fly coaching in the tunnel. I'm not a coach but I'm not passing on wrong info. Need help PM needtojump.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #7 December 26, 2004 OK Paige, you win. Maxx, for you own safety ignore my advice. Do what Miss "I'm not a coach but I'm not passing on wrong info" says and lean back Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #8 December 26, 2004 QuoteDo Miss "I'm not a coach but I'm not passing on wrong info" says and lean back And what's that supposed to mean????????? It's not about winning. It's about giving advice when you are not qualified. I'm not telling him to do anything except talk to someone who is qualified. If he takes my adivce without asking anyone, then that is his stupidity (whether its my advice or yours he takes, not the issue, he needs to ask those who are qualified not us). If you are passing on advice you need to qualify it (or fill in your profile) so people know something about your flying skills or tunnel skills. Don't pass out advice you are not qualified to give. Notice how I make a disclaimer about my advice and give the name of someone who knows what they are doing to get in contact with. I claim to know nothing.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #9 December 26, 2004 That means I have as much right to offer my response to his question as you do, and I am kinda offended and surprised that you jumped on my case for agreeing with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #10 December 26, 2004 Avion, please don't take this the wrong way, but Paige was just looking out for Maxx. It seems smart to let a more experienced skydiver and tunnel flyer, hopefully a coach, address the questions that come up. How would you feel if someone followed your advice, and it was the wrong advice for them? What if they were subsequently hurt? Personally, I lurk ALL the forums, but I usually only post in Bonfire or Women's Forum because I am a baby flyer and in no position to give advice to the more experienced flyers. I honestly feel that we (newer jumpers/flyers) should allow the instructors/coaches/highly experienced skydivers/flyers the opportunity to answer the technical questions that come up. You are welcome to join us in Bonfire for more light-hearted discussions/talk or to just chat with people in the skydiving community. Btw, it really is a small community...we all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #11 December 26, 2004 What Rosa said. I'm not trying to jump your bones but neither of us is qualified to give out coaching advice. You can really put someone in a bad position speaking above your qualifications. I have a considerable amount of time in the tunnel compared to you (and most) and I am not qualified to give advice. I have 8 hours in there. I'm just saying that its not the best idea for us to be giving out advice without giving sources that really know what they are doing.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #12 December 26, 2004 Thanks for clearing that up Rosa. Could have not found better words myself. Thanks for understanding what I was trying to get across.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NeedToJump 0 #13 December 26, 2004 Avion - it looks like you mean well and are just trying to help, but there's a big difference between seeing how someone is flying and actually being able to do it. There are a lot of people giving advice in these forums and it's very difficult for newbies to sort out what is good advice and what might get them hurt or even killed. I'd suggest filling in the rest of your profile and lurking the topical forums for a while before giving out advice. No matter how much you've read or seen you don't have the experience to know what you're talking about. Please don't take this personally, we're all just trying to look out for everyone's safety. Now to answer the original post: Quote1. Is it normal for an experienced sitflyer that flying in the tunnel is a whole different deal? Yes. Due to the slower airspeed and the fact that there are walls, the tunnel magnifies any "faults" in your flying (in any orientation.) However, the biggest reason people find such a huge difference between the tunnel and the sky is because the sky let's you get away with a poor body position whereas the tunnel does not. Quote2. Is it worth to spend another high amount of $ to learn to sitfly in the tunnel? Will it improve my (already working) sitflying in the sky? That's entirely up to you. The tunnel is very expensive but you will learn a tremendous amount from it. Do you need the tunnel to learn to fly well? No. It will definitely help you out if you want it to though. If you want to use the tunnel solely as a tool to improve your sky flying then I'd suggest getting your self a good coach to work with you both in the tunnel and the sky. This will allow you to directly transfer what you learn in the tunnel to your flying in the sky. Quote3. Is there a special trick or something I could try the next time? I found out that bringing my lower legs to the side helped a little bit, because the air caught more surface then.. As has been said already, lean back! Make sure that your head is back as well. You want your arm from your shoulder to your elbow to be even with your body or slightly forward. Also try bending your elbows so your arms are not completely straight, this will make things a bit easier on your arms and give you more to work with. The best "trick" however would be to get a coach who can show you all of this and work with you through your progression. Good luck and have fun in there! Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #14 December 26, 2004 Well, do you all think that Paulipod lacks sufficient experience/qualifications to give advise/information about how to get off the net sitflying in the tunnel? He mentioned that to get off the net he had to use his back. Paige said lean back and added a disclaimer as to her worthiness to give advise. I said lean back and explained why. Then Paige added a disclaimer as to my worthiness to give advise. I find it interesting that you all are knocking me because of my lack of experience rather than disagreeing with the advise or information I offered. Rather than saying my advise or information is wrong, you're saying I'm wrong for offering it. On of the things I have noticed about accepted/certified coaches is that most of them say something different. It gets confusing when one coach tells you your doing something wrong when your doing it the way another coach told you to. It all comes down to information, understanding what is going on, and finding out what works for you. Some of my best tips have come from people, who after watching me work on something, just walk up and say, try this... I gather information from books, coaches, skydivers, tunnelrats, forums, and watching others for hours and hours in order to be educated. Hopefully, so that I can enjoy the activity and prevent you all from reading about something stupid I did. As to my bio, I would enter that I have zero jumps and over an hour and a half in the tunnel belly and back flying, if it let me do so. I suggested an air time profile entry in the in the feedback forum, apparently in vain. In a couple of months I'll add that I have one year in the sport when the time comes. Prehaps you feel more comfortable with me, if I lied and made myself appear more experienced. I have yet to try sitflying, although it is next on my progession, so I have been paying particular attention to its coaching. I have been lurking here for some time, and have participated in a number of discussions earlier this year mostly in the incidents forum as cybervagrant in order to understand what can go wrong. I have since changed my ID because I like this one better. I posted this response in spirit of discussion. I presume, although avoid expecting, that he will take my advise and everybody elses, think about it, and discuss it with his instructor the next time he goes to the tunnel. Ari is one of the most experienced people here. Paige has hours and hours in the tunnel. Paulipod has his own tunnel!!! In summary: The more experienced people said lean back. The less experieced person said lean back and explained why. Then the more experieced people told the less experience person he was wrong. You simple question seems to have brought another issue into view. I have offered my input on his question, I explained what to do and why. I have explained honestly my experience. My final thoughts for you, Maxx, is: There appears to be a prejudice here concerning experience, as exemplified by the people harping about my level of experience rather than the particulars of my response. That implies obedience without question may be expected from those people with more experience. In appropriate situations, like in the air, that obedience should be given, however in a forum of discussion, like this, it can be counter productive. Use some common sense: Avoid ruling out completely someones advise, just because they have less experience they could be right, and avoid taking without question someones advise just because they have more experience, they could be wrong. After all its your life. I hope I have given you some fuel for thought and helped you understand what's going on with sitflying and lift in the tunnel. Blue Skies... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paulipod 0 #15 December 26, 2004 Hey, Dont drag me into your bun-fighting Besides, my advice would be to go to a tunnel with enough power to lift you.... (like ours!) lol Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #16 December 26, 2004 Really my point is, what their saying about qualifications would make alot more sense if I was providing conflicting advise. How much experience does one need to say the airspeed in the tunnel is less than a sitflyer usually falls at in open air and so you have to catch some lift on your back to get off the net? I feel like, their making it out that I am instructing a 20 jump wonder how swoop with a double front riser dive. I said the same thing they did, and they told me I was wrong to do so. I just have trouble with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #17 December 27, 2004 First I wanna say that this is taking the wrong tone and I did not intend it to be like this. I am simply looking out for those who read the forums and take the advice. Please note that I have considered your position and thought about it with an open mind. This post is in no way shape or form a personal attack because many people on here offer advice they are not qualified to do so. I'm simply concerned about that and trying to make sure people know what adivce to take and what to filter through a coach. I think it should all be filtered through a coach regardless of who gives the advice. As you stated everyone learns different. Certain saying or phrasing could spark someone's lightbulb and get them flying better. When offering advice maybe just say, check with a coach but this is what I found/saw working for people. I'm still skeptical about the "saw" people doing. I'll explain that later. On to your post. QuoteWell, do you all think that Paulipod lacks sufficient experience/qualifications to give advise/information about how to get off the net sitflying in the tunnel? You cannot compare the experience you have to that of Paulipod. That is like night and day. That would be like comparing myself to someone who has amassed tunnel time and jumps. You simply can't compare things without a common base. Paulipod has his profile filled out and works in close conjunction with a tunnel as you stated (and is in his profile) he has his own. There are spaces to put in your tunnel time in your profile, there does not have to be a specific place for it. Anything can go in a sig line, which might be a good place for it if you are going to offer advice. That way it is with every post you make and can be known to anyone. QuoteThere appears to be a prejudice here concerning experience, as exemplified by the people harping about my level of experience rather than the particulars of my response. Yes there is a prejudice concerning experience levels and rightfully so. This is about the particulars of your response, if you have never done something, you have no idea on what needs to be done to correct a problem or offer advice that is safe and reasonable. Offering advice and assuming people will check with a coach is a bad idea. People read these forums, esp. newbies such as yourself (and I), and take the word as oath. Not saying we take advice blindly (no assumption about you is made here, please don't take it that way) but others may. That is their problem and not yours but you and others may be adding fuel to the fire. We are simply trying to keep everyone safe and keep information out there that is passed on by coaches who know, practice, and execute these tips daily (or at the very least frequently). I agree that the more someone knows the more tools they have. You are absolutely right. I also agree that coaches use different sayings or words to describe flying tips and tricks. I have experienced what you are talking about and def. agree that the more questions you ask the better off you are. The problem is we can't assume everyone will ask those questions of the appropriate people. Maybe you should not offer advice on something you've never done. I've seen plenty of people shoot a gun but I'm not going to give instructions to someone at a shooting range on gun safety and operation. QuoteRather than saying my advise or information is wrong, you're saying I'm wrong for offering it. Pretty sure that's what I was getting at when I said you are not qualified to offer that advice. Didn't say the advice was wrong, you are just not qualified to be speaking on a subject you have never experienced. If you have never done something than you are in the wrong for trying to pass on advice regarding it. Again, shooting/gun example. If you have tried sit flying and leaning back worked you could throw in your 2 cents by saying, leaning back worked for me but check with your coach before trying this. I want EVERYONE to be safe in the air and the tunnel as do you, I assume. The dangers that we face in the tunnel and the air can have the same consequences; broken bones, busted spirits, and lives taken. By offering advice you are not qualified to give, you endanger others who may read your post and not check with the proper people before trying something new. Point and case: If you haven't done it, don't give advice on it. If you haven't flown a canopy, don't give canopy control, swooping, accuracy tricks, or wing loading advice. You don't have the experience or know how to offer safe advice past face value or what you read in a manual if you have never had the experience. "You" is not directed at just Avion, but everyone on the forums that offers advice they are not qualified to give. He is not the only one by any means, again please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to pick on Avion just trying to keep the advice on this forum to that of coaches who have waaaay more expierence than my insignificant 8 hours. Yes, 8 hours in the tunnel is insignificant compared to the people who are qualified to give advice. Just food for thought. No malicious intent intended.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #18 December 27, 2004 Maybe we should form a group of people to get a place in the profile or next to your avitar for your tunnel time. I know I would love to have that in there to help keep people safe. Again, please don't take this the wrong way. I've seen bad advice given (not saying yours by any means we already know you stated what we did) and taken without regard or reference to a coach. Unfortunately bad things happened and will continue to if we (those who aren't coaches) don't qualify our advice.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #19 December 27, 2004 QuoteBesides, my advice would be to go to a tunnel with enough power to lift you.... (like ours!) lol Or just learn how to fly your body fast or slow I'm sure you know your shit and can fly in anythingTunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #20 December 27, 2004 Yes, I agree the tone here has gone in an unintended direction. It's just that I knew the answer for this question, and the reasoning behind that answer, having seen many beginning sitfliers experience that same problem during coaching and the instructors response. Whether I should have offered this information without having first hand experience with it is another matter. It seemed reasonable to me in this case. Rather than comparing myself to anyone, I was tring to say the experienced people, who should know what to do here, say lean back. I just tried to explain why, which is something the the experienced people hinted at but neglected to do fully. As you might preceive, I like to understand and explain things in depth. Many times I have been fustrated by an authority who provides an answer without a reason. Prehaps they lack the knowledge of the reason, prehaps they lack the skill to articulate it. In any case, I like to know the answer and the reason. That by the way has fustrated many of my teachers, it seems to shake their sense of security Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #21 December 27, 2004 Quotewe all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. True, true. I just met PMS#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #22 December 28, 2004 I understand the frustration with the lack of description for responses. Maybe send a PM to someone more qualified to offer an explination. It might also be beneficial to tell them to ask a qualified coach who they trust and respect if you don't have a reference for them. I know I try to stay away from things I have never done if I have no first hand knowledge on a subject.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #23 December 28, 2004 QuoteQuotewe all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. True, true. I just met PMS#1 Cool. Brooke is a great person and awesome freeflyer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #24 December 28, 2004 I claim to know NOTHING! --------------------------------------- BTW here's how to say that in german and french: Ich weiss das ich nichts weiss. Je sais que je sais rein. They're a couple of my favorite sayings LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #25 December 29, 2004 Foreign languages are beyond me. Unfortunately I don't speak any but that's pretty cool if they really mean that. You should talk wtih a tunnel instructor and if you are ready, start sittin' in the tunnel instead of just watching everyone else Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Paige 0 #8 December 26, 2004 QuoteDo Miss "I'm not a coach but I'm not passing on wrong info" says and lean back And what's that supposed to mean????????? It's not about winning. It's about giving advice when you are not qualified. I'm not telling him to do anything except talk to someone who is qualified. If he takes my adivce without asking anyone, then that is his stupidity (whether its my advice or yours he takes, not the issue, he needs to ask those who are qualified not us). If you are passing on advice you need to qualify it (or fill in your profile) so people know something about your flying skills or tunnel skills. Don't pass out advice you are not qualified to give. Notice how I make a disclaimer about my advice and give the name of someone who knows what they are doing to get in contact with. I claim to know nothing.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #9 December 26, 2004 That means I have as much right to offer my response to his question as you do, and I am kinda offended and surprised that you jumped on my case for agreeing with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #10 December 26, 2004 Avion, please don't take this the wrong way, but Paige was just looking out for Maxx. It seems smart to let a more experienced skydiver and tunnel flyer, hopefully a coach, address the questions that come up. How would you feel if someone followed your advice, and it was the wrong advice for them? What if they were subsequently hurt? Personally, I lurk ALL the forums, but I usually only post in Bonfire or Women's Forum because I am a baby flyer and in no position to give advice to the more experienced flyers. I honestly feel that we (newer jumpers/flyers) should allow the instructors/coaches/highly experienced skydivers/flyers the opportunity to answer the technical questions that come up. You are welcome to join us in Bonfire for more light-hearted discussions/talk or to just chat with people in the skydiving community. Btw, it really is a small community...we all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #11 December 26, 2004 What Rosa said. I'm not trying to jump your bones but neither of us is qualified to give out coaching advice. You can really put someone in a bad position speaking above your qualifications. I have a considerable amount of time in the tunnel compared to you (and most) and I am not qualified to give advice. I have 8 hours in there. I'm just saying that its not the best idea for us to be giving out advice without giving sources that really know what they are doing.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #12 December 26, 2004 Thanks for clearing that up Rosa. Could have not found better words myself. Thanks for understanding what I was trying to get across.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NeedToJump 0 #13 December 26, 2004 Avion - it looks like you mean well and are just trying to help, but there's a big difference between seeing how someone is flying and actually being able to do it. There are a lot of people giving advice in these forums and it's very difficult for newbies to sort out what is good advice and what might get them hurt or even killed. I'd suggest filling in the rest of your profile and lurking the topical forums for a while before giving out advice. No matter how much you've read or seen you don't have the experience to know what you're talking about. Please don't take this personally, we're all just trying to look out for everyone's safety. Now to answer the original post: Quote1. Is it normal for an experienced sitflyer that flying in the tunnel is a whole different deal? Yes. Due to the slower airspeed and the fact that there are walls, the tunnel magnifies any "faults" in your flying (in any orientation.) However, the biggest reason people find such a huge difference between the tunnel and the sky is because the sky let's you get away with a poor body position whereas the tunnel does not. Quote2. Is it worth to spend another high amount of $ to learn to sitfly in the tunnel? Will it improve my (already working) sitflying in the sky? That's entirely up to you. The tunnel is very expensive but you will learn a tremendous amount from it. Do you need the tunnel to learn to fly well? No. It will definitely help you out if you want it to though. If you want to use the tunnel solely as a tool to improve your sky flying then I'd suggest getting your self a good coach to work with you both in the tunnel and the sky. This will allow you to directly transfer what you learn in the tunnel to your flying in the sky. Quote3. Is there a special trick or something I could try the next time? I found out that bringing my lower legs to the side helped a little bit, because the air caught more surface then.. As has been said already, lean back! Make sure that your head is back as well. You want your arm from your shoulder to your elbow to be even with your body or slightly forward. Also try bending your elbows so your arms are not completely straight, this will make things a bit easier on your arms and give you more to work with. The best "trick" however would be to get a coach who can show you all of this and work with you through your progression. Good luck and have fun in there! Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #14 December 26, 2004 Well, do you all think that Paulipod lacks sufficient experience/qualifications to give advise/information about how to get off the net sitflying in the tunnel? He mentioned that to get off the net he had to use his back. Paige said lean back and added a disclaimer as to her worthiness to give advise. I said lean back and explained why. Then Paige added a disclaimer as to my worthiness to give advise. I find it interesting that you all are knocking me because of my lack of experience rather than disagreeing with the advise or information I offered. Rather than saying my advise or information is wrong, you're saying I'm wrong for offering it. On of the things I have noticed about accepted/certified coaches is that most of them say something different. It gets confusing when one coach tells you your doing something wrong when your doing it the way another coach told you to. It all comes down to information, understanding what is going on, and finding out what works for you. Some of my best tips have come from people, who after watching me work on something, just walk up and say, try this... I gather information from books, coaches, skydivers, tunnelrats, forums, and watching others for hours and hours in order to be educated. Hopefully, so that I can enjoy the activity and prevent you all from reading about something stupid I did. As to my bio, I would enter that I have zero jumps and over an hour and a half in the tunnel belly and back flying, if it let me do so. I suggested an air time profile entry in the in the feedback forum, apparently in vain. In a couple of months I'll add that I have one year in the sport when the time comes. Prehaps you feel more comfortable with me, if I lied and made myself appear more experienced. I have yet to try sitflying, although it is next on my progession, so I have been paying particular attention to its coaching. I have been lurking here for some time, and have participated in a number of discussions earlier this year mostly in the incidents forum as cybervagrant in order to understand what can go wrong. I have since changed my ID because I like this one better. I posted this response in spirit of discussion. I presume, although avoid expecting, that he will take my advise and everybody elses, think about it, and discuss it with his instructor the next time he goes to the tunnel. Ari is one of the most experienced people here. Paige has hours and hours in the tunnel. Paulipod has his own tunnel!!! In summary: The more experienced people said lean back. The less experieced person said lean back and explained why. Then the more experieced people told the less experience person he was wrong. You simple question seems to have brought another issue into view. I have offered my input on his question, I explained what to do and why. I have explained honestly my experience. My final thoughts for you, Maxx, is: There appears to be a prejudice here concerning experience, as exemplified by the people harping about my level of experience rather than the particulars of my response. That implies obedience without question may be expected from those people with more experience. In appropriate situations, like in the air, that obedience should be given, however in a forum of discussion, like this, it can be counter productive. Use some common sense: Avoid ruling out completely someones advise, just because they have less experience they could be right, and avoid taking without question someones advise just because they have more experience, they could be wrong. After all its your life. I hope I have given you some fuel for thought and helped you understand what's going on with sitflying and lift in the tunnel. Blue Skies... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paulipod 0 #15 December 26, 2004 Hey, Dont drag me into your bun-fighting Besides, my advice would be to go to a tunnel with enough power to lift you.... (like ours!) lol Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #16 December 26, 2004 Really my point is, what their saying about qualifications would make alot more sense if I was providing conflicting advise. How much experience does one need to say the airspeed in the tunnel is less than a sitflyer usually falls at in open air and so you have to catch some lift on your back to get off the net? I feel like, their making it out that I am instructing a 20 jump wonder how swoop with a double front riser dive. I said the same thing they did, and they told me I was wrong to do so. I just have trouble with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #17 December 27, 2004 First I wanna say that this is taking the wrong tone and I did not intend it to be like this. I am simply looking out for those who read the forums and take the advice. Please note that I have considered your position and thought about it with an open mind. This post is in no way shape or form a personal attack because many people on here offer advice they are not qualified to do so. I'm simply concerned about that and trying to make sure people know what adivce to take and what to filter through a coach. I think it should all be filtered through a coach regardless of who gives the advice. As you stated everyone learns different. Certain saying or phrasing could spark someone's lightbulb and get them flying better. When offering advice maybe just say, check with a coach but this is what I found/saw working for people. I'm still skeptical about the "saw" people doing. I'll explain that later. On to your post. QuoteWell, do you all think that Paulipod lacks sufficient experience/qualifications to give advise/information about how to get off the net sitflying in the tunnel? You cannot compare the experience you have to that of Paulipod. That is like night and day. That would be like comparing myself to someone who has amassed tunnel time and jumps. You simply can't compare things without a common base. Paulipod has his profile filled out and works in close conjunction with a tunnel as you stated (and is in his profile) he has his own. There are spaces to put in your tunnel time in your profile, there does not have to be a specific place for it. Anything can go in a sig line, which might be a good place for it if you are going to offer advice. That way it is with every post you make and can be known to anyone. QuoteThere appears to be a prejudice here concerning experience, as exemplified by the people harping about my level of experience rather than the particulars of my response. Yes there is a prejudice concerning experience levels and rightfully so. This is about the particulars of your response, if you have never done something, you have no idea on what needs to be done to correct a problem or offer advice that is safe and reasonable. Offering advice and assuming people will check with a coach is a bad idea. People read these forums, esp. newbies such as yourself (and I), and take the word as oath. Not saying we take advice blindly (no assumption about you is made here, please don't take it that way) but others may. That is their problem and not yours but you and others may be adding fuel to the fire. We are simply trying to keep everyone safe and keep information out there that is passed on by coaches who know, practice, and execute these tips daily (or at the very least frequently). I agree that the more someone knows the more tools they have. You are absolutely right. I also agree that coaches use different sayings or words to describe flying tips and tricks. I have experienced what you are talking about and def. agree that the more questions you ask the better off you are. The problem is we can't assume everyone will ask those questions of the appropriate people. Maybe you should not offer advice on something you've never done. I've seen plenty of people shoot a gun but I'm not going to give instructions to someone at a shooting range on gun safety and operation. QuoteRather than saying my advise or information is wrong, you're saying I'm wrong for offering it. Pretty sure that's what I was getting at when I said you are not qualified to offer that advice. Didn't say the advice was wrong, you are just not qualified to be speaking on a subject you have never experienced. If you have never done something than you are in the wrong for trying to pass on advice regarding it. Again, shooting/gun example. If you have tried sit flying and leaning back worked you could throw in your 2 cents by saying, leaning back worked for me but check with your coach before trying this. I want EVERYONE to be safe in the air and the tunnel as do you, I assume. The dangers that we face in the tunnel and the air can have the same consequences; broken bones, busted spirits, and lives taken. By offering advice you are not qualified to give, you endanger others who may read your post and not check with the proper people before trying something new. Point and case: If you haven't done it, don't give advice on it. If you haven't flown a canopy, don't give canopy control, swooping, accuracy tricks, or wing loading advice. You don't have the experience or know how to offer safe advice past face value or what you read in a manual if you have never had the experience. "You" is not directed at just Avion, but everyone on the forums that offers advice they are not qualified to give. He is not the only one by any means, again please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to pick on Avion just trying to keep the advice on this forum to that of coaches who have waaaay more expierence than my insignificant 8 hours. Yes, 8 hours in the tunnel is insignificant compared to the people who are qualified to give advice. Just food for thought. No malicious intent intended.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #18 December 27, 2004 Maybe we should form a group of people to get a place in the profile or next to your avitar for your tunnel time. I know I would love to have that in there to help keep people safe. Again, please don't take this the wrong way. I've seen bad advice given (not saying yours by any means we already know you stated what we did) and taken without regard or reference to a coach. Unfortunately bad things happened and will continue to if we (those who aren't coaches) don't qualify our advice.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #19 December 27, 2004 QuoteBesides, my advice would be to go to a tunnel with enough power to lift you.... (like ours!) lol Or just learn how to fly your body fast or slow I'm sure you know your shit and can fly in anythingTunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #20 December 27, 2004 Yes, I agree the tone here has gone in an unintended direction. It's just that I knew the answer for this question, and the reasoning behind that answer, having seen many beginning sitfliers experience that same problem during coaching and the instructors response. Whether I should have offered this information without having first hand experience with it is another matter. It seemed reasonable to me in this case. Rather than comparing myself to anyone, I was tring to say the experienced people, who should know what to do here, say lean back. I just tried to explain why, which is something the the experienced people hinted at but neglected to do fully. As you might preceive, I like to understand and explain things in depth. Many times I have been fustrated by an authority who provides an answer without a reason. Prehaps they lack the knowledge of the reason, prehaps they lack the skill to articulate it. In any case, I like to know the answer and the reason. That by the way has fustrated many of my teachers, it seems to shake their sense of security Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #21 December 27, 2004 Quotewe all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. True, true. I just met PMS#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #22 December 28, 2004 I understand the frustration with the lack of description for responses. Maybe send a PM to someone more qualified to offer an explination. It might also be beneficial to tell them to ask a qualified coach who they trust and respect if you don't have a reference for them. I know I try to stay away from things I have never done if I have no first hand knowledge on a subject.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #23 December 28, 2004 QuoteQuotewe all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. True, true. I just met PMS#1 Cool. Brooke is a great person and awesome freeflyer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #24 December 28, 2004 I claim to know NOTHING! --------------------------------------- BTW here's how to say that in german and french: Ich weiss das ich nichts weiss. Je sais que je sais rein. They're a couple of my favorite sayings LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #25 December 29, 2004 Foreign languages are beyond me. Unfortunately I don't speak any but that's pretty cool if they really mean that. You should talk wtih a tunnel instructor and if you are ready, start sittin' in the tunnel instead of just watching everyone else Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Paige 0 #11 December 26, 2004 What Rosa said. I'm not trying to jump your bones but neither of us is qualified to give out coaching advice. You can really put someone in a bad position speaking above your qualifications. I have a considerable amount of time in the tunnel compared to you (and most) and I am not qualified to give advice. I have 8 hours in there. I'm just saying that its not the best idea for us to be giving out advice without giving sources that really know what they are doing.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #12 December 26, 2004 Thanks for clearing that up Rosa. Could have not found better words myself. Thanks for understanding what I was trying to get across.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #13 December 26, 2004 Avion - it looks like you mean well and are just trying to help, but there's a big difference between seeing how someone is flying and actually being able to do it. There are a lot of people giving advice in these forums and it's very difficult for newbies to sort out what is good advice and what might get them hurt or even killed. I'd suggest filling in the rest of your profile and lurking the topical forums for a while before giving out advice. No matter how much you've read or seen you don't have the experience to know what you're talking about. Please don't take this personally, we're all just trying to look out for everyone's safety. Now to answer the original post: Quote1. Is it normal for an experienced sitflyer that flying in the tunnel is a whole different deal? Yes. Due to the slower airspeed and the fact that there are walls, the tunnel magnifies any "faults" in your flying (in any orientation.) However, the biggest reason people find such a huge difference between the tunnel and the sky is because the sky let's you get away with a poor body position whereas the tunnel does not. Quote2. Is it worth to spend another high amount of $ to learn to sitfly in the tunnel? Will it improve my (already working) sitflying in the sky? That's entirely up to you. The tunnel is very expensive but you will learn a tremendous amount from it. Do you need the tunnel to learn to fly well? No. It will definitely help you out if you want it to though. If you want to use the tunnel solely as a tool to improve your sky flying then I'd suggest getting your self a good coach to work with you both in the tunnel and the sky. This will allow you to directly transfer what you learn in the tunnel to your flying in the sky. Quote3. Is there a special trick or something I could try the next time? I found out that bringing my lower legs to the side helped a little bit, because the air caught more surface then.. As has been said already, lean back! Make sure that your head is back as well. You want your arm from your shoulder to your elbow to be even with your body or slightly forward. Also try bending your elbows so your arms are not completely straight, this will make things a bit easier on your arms and give you more to work with. The best "trick" however would be to get a coach who can show you all of this and work with you through your progression. Good luck and have fun in there! Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #14 December 26, 2004 Well, do you all think that Paulipod lacks sufficient experience/qualifications to give advise/information about how to get off the net sitflying in the tunnel? He mentioned that to get off the net he had to use his back. Paige said lean back and added a disclaimer as to her worthiness to give advise. I said lean back and explained why. Then Paige added a disclaimer as to my worthiness to give advise. I find it interesting that you all are knocking me because of my lack of experience rather than disagreeing with the advise or information I offered. Rather than saying my advise or information is wrong, you're saying I'm wrong for offering it. On of the things I have noticed about accepted/certified coaches is that most of them say something different. It gets confusing when one coach tells you your doing something wrong when your doing it the way another coach told you to. It all comes down to information, understanding what is going on, and finding out what works for you. Some of my best tips have come from people, who after watching me work on something, just walk up and say, try this... I gather information from books, coaches, skydivers, tunnelrats, forums, and watching others for hours and hours in order to be educated. Hopefully, so that I can enjoy the activity and prevent you all from reading about something stupid I did. As to my bio, I would enter that I have zero jumps and over an hour and a half in the tunnel belly and back flying, if it let me do so. I suggested an air time profile entry in the in the feedback forum, apparently in vain. In a couple of months I'll add that I have one year in the sport when the time comes. Prehaps you feel more comfortable with me, if I lied and made myself appear more experienced. I have yet to try sitflying, although it is next on my progession, so I have been paying particular attention to its coaching. I have been lurking here for some time, and have participated in a number of discussions earlier this year mostly in the incidents forum as cybervagrant in order to understand what can go wrong. I have since changed my ID because I like this one better. I posted this response in spirit of discussion. I presume, although avoid expecting, that he will take my advise and everybody elses, think about it, and discuss it with his instructor the next time he goes to the tunnel. Ari is one of the most experienced people here. Paige has hours and hours in the tunnel. Paulipod has his own tunnel!!! In summary: The more experienced people said lean back. The less experieced person said lean back and explained why. Then the more experieced people told the less experience person he was wrong. You simple question seems to have brought another issue into view. I have offered my input on his question, I explained what to do and why. I have explained honestly my experience. My final thoughts for you, Maxx, is: There appears to be a prejudice here concerning experience, as exemplified by the people harping about my level of experience rather than the particulars of my response. That implies obedience without question may be expected from those people with more experience. In appropriate situations, like in the air, that obedience should be given, however in a forum of discussion, like this, it can be counter productive. Use some common sense: Avoid ruling out completely someones advise, just because they have less experience they could be right, and avoid taking without question someones advise just because they have more experience, they could be wrong. After all its your life. I hope I have given you some fuel for thought and helped you understand what's going on with sitflying and lift in the tunnel. Blue Skies... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #15 December 26, 2004 Hey, Dont drag me into your bun-fighting Besides, my advice would be to go to a tunnel with enough power to lift you.... (like ours!) lol Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #16 December 26, 2004 Really my point is, what their saying about qualifications would make alot more sense if I was providing conflicting advise. How much experience does one need to say the airspeed in the tunnel is less than a sitflyer usually falls at in open air and so you have to catch some lift on your back to get off the net? I feel like, their making it out that I am instructing a 20 jump wonder how swoop with a double front riser dive. I said the same thing they did, and they told me I was wrong to do so. I just have trouble with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #17 December 27, 2004 First I wanna say that this is taking the wrong tone and I did not intend it to be like this. I am simply looking out for those who read the forums and take the advice. Please note that I have considered your position and thought about it with an open mind. This post is in no way shape or form a personal attack because many people on here offer advice they are not qualified to do so. I'm simply concerned about that and trying to make sure people know what adivce to take and what to filter through a coach. I think it should all be filtered through a coach regardless of who gives the advice. As you stated everyone learns different. Certain saying or phrasing could spark someone's lightbulb and get them flying better. When offering advice maybe just say, check with a coach but this is what I found/saw working for people. I'm still skeptical about the "saw" people doing. I'll explain that later. On to your post. QuoteWell, do you all think that Paulipod lacks sufficient experience/qualifications to give advise/information about how to get off the net sitflying in the tunnel? You cannot compare the experience you have to that of Paulipod. That is like night and day. That would be like comparing myself to someone who has amassed tunnel time and jumps. You simply can't compare things without a common base. Paulipod has his profile filled out and works in close conjunction with a tunnel as you stated (and is in his profile) he has his own. There are spaces to put in your tunnel time in your profile, there does not have to be a specific place for it. Anything can go in a sig line, which might be a good place for it if you are going to offer advice. That way it is with every post you make and can be known to anyone. QuoteThere appears to be a prejudice here concerning experience, as exemplified by the people harping about my level of experience rather than the particulars of my response. Yes there is a prejudice concerning experience levels and rightfully so. This is about the particulars of your response, if you have never done something, you have no idea on what needs to be done to correct a problem or offer advice that is safe and reasonable. Offering advice and assuming people will check with a coach is a bad idea. People read these forums, esp. newbies such as yourself (and I), and take the word as oath. Not saying we take advice blindly (no assumption about you is made here, please don't take it that way) but others may. That is their problem and not yours but you and others may be adding fuel to the fire. We are simply trying to keep everyone safe and keep information out there that is passed on by coaches who know, practice, and execute these tips daily (or at the very least frequently). I agree that the more someone knows the more tools they have. You are absolutely right. I also agree that coaches use different sayings or words to describe flying tips and tricks. I have experienced what you are talking about and def. agree that the more questions you ask the better off you are. The problem is we can't assume everyone will ask those questions of the appropriate people. Maybe you should not offer advice on something you've never done. I've seen plenty of people shoot a gun but I'm not going to give instructions to someone at a shooting range on gun safety and operation. QuoteRather than saying my advise or information is wrong, you're saying I'm wrong for offering it. Pretty sure that's what I was getting at when I said you are not qualified to offer that advice. Didn't say the advice was wrong, you are just not qualified to be speaking on a subject you have never experienced. If you have never done something than you are in the wrong for trying to pass on advice regarding it. Again, shooting/gun example. If you have tried sit flying and leaning back worked you could throw in your 2 cents by saying, leaning back worked for me but check with your coach before trying this. I want EVERYONE to be safe in the air and the tunnel as do you, I assume. The dangers that we face in the tunnel and the air can have the same consequences; broken bones, busted spirits, and lives taken. By offering advice you are not qualified to give, you endanger others who may read your post and not check with the proper people before trying something new. Point and case: If you haven't done it, don't give advice on it. If you haven't flown a canopy, don't give canopy control, swooping, accuracy tricks, or wing loading advice. You don't have the experience or know how to offer safe advice past face value or what you read in a manual if you have never had the experience. "You" is not directed at just Avion, but everyone on the forums that offers advice they are not qualified to give. He is not the only one by any means, again please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to pick on Avion just trying to keep the advice on this forum to that of coaches who have waaaay more expierence than my insignificant 8 hours. Yes, 8 hours in the tunnel is insignificant compared to the people who are qualified to give advice. Just food for thought. No malicious intent intended.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #18 December 27, 2004 Maybe we should form a group of people to get a place in the profile or next to your avitar for your tunnel time. I know I would love to have that in there to help keep people safe. Again, please don't take this the wrong way. I've seen bad advice given (not saying yours by any means we already know you stated what we did) and taken without regard or reference to a coach. Unfortunately bad things happened and will continue to if we (those who aren't coaches) don't qualify our advice.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #19 December 27, 2004 QuoteBesides, my advice would be to go to a tunnel with enough power to lift you.... (like ours!) lol Or just learn how to fly your body fast or slow I'm sure you know your shit and can fly in anythingTunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #20 December 27, 2004 Yes, I agree the tone here has gone in an unintended direction. It's just that I knew the answer for this question, and the reasoning behind that answer, having seen many beginning sitfliers experience that same problem during coaching and the instructors response. Whether I should have offered this information without having first hand experience with it is another matter. It seemed reasonable to me in this case. Rather than comparing myself to anyone, I was tring to say the experienced people, who should know what to do here, say lean back. I just tried to explain why, which is something the the experienced people hinted at but neglected to do fully. As you might preceive, I like to understand and explain things in depth. Many times I have been fustrated by an authority who provides an answer without a reason. Prehaps they lack the knowledge of the reason, prehaps they lack the skill to articulate it. In any case, I like to know the answer and the reason. That by the way has fustrated many of my teachers, it seems to shake their sense of security Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #21 December 27, 2004 Quotewe all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. True, true. I just met PMS#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #22 December 28, 2004 I understand the frustration with the lack of description for responses. Maybe send a PM to someone more qualified to offer an explination. It might also be beneficial to tell them to ask a qualified coach who they trust and respect if you don't have a reference for them. I know I try to stay away from things I have never done if I have no first hand knowledge on a subject.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #23 December 28, 2004 QuoteQuotewe all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. True, true. I just met PMS#1 Cool. Brooke is a great person and awesome freeflyer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #24 December 28, 2004 I claim to know NOTHING! --------------------------------------- BTW here's how to say that in german and french: Ich weiss das ich nichts weiss. Je sais que je sais rein. They're a couple of my favorite sayings LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #25 December 29, 2004 Foreign languages are beyond me. Unfortunately I don't speak any but that's pretty cool if they really mean that. You should talk wtih a tunnel instructor and if you are ready, start sittin' in the tunnel instead of just watching everyone else Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Paige 0 #22 December 28, 2004 I understand the frustration with the lack of description for responses. Maybe send a PM to someone more qualified to offer an explination. It might also be beneficial to tell them to ask a qualified coach who they trust and respect if you don't have a reference for them. I know I try to stay away from things I have never done if I have no first hand knowledge on a subject.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #23 December 28, 2004 QuoteQuotewe all know each other or run into each other more than you may think. True, true. I just met PMS#1 Cool. Brooke is a great person and awesome freeflyer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #24 December 28, 2004 I claim to know NOTHING! --------------------------------------- BTW here's how to say that in german and french: Ich weiss das ich nichts weiss. Je sais que je sais rein. They're a couple of my favorite sayings LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #25 December 29, 2004 Foreign languages are beyond me. Unfortunately I don't speak any but that's pretty cool if they really mean that. You should talk wtih a tunnel instructor and if you are ready, start sittin' in the tunnel instead of just watching everyone else Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Avion 0 #24 December 28, 2004 I claim to know NOTHING! --------------------------------------- BTW here's how to say that in german and french: Ich weiss das ich nichts weiss. Je sais que je sais rein. They're a couple of my favorite sayings LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paige 0 #25 December 29, 2004 Foreign languages are beyond me. Unfortunately I don't speak any but that's pretty cool if they really mean that. You should talk wtih a tunnel instructor and if you are ready, start sittin' in the tunnel instead of just watching everyone else Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Paige 0 #25 December 29, 2004 Foreign languages are beyond me. Unfortunately I don't speak any but that's pretty cool if they really mean that. You should talk wtih a tunnel instructor and if you are ready, start sittin' in the tunnel instead of just watching everyone else Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
