Drop Zones effected by War?

[Blue2003 0]

Does anyone know of any Dropzones, especially in NY area that will have problems due to new alert regarding airspace etc.?

After 9/11 there was soem time I think, however I made my first tandem exactly 30 days after the twin Tower attack.

"Cloudy Skies look different through skydivers eyes. Is that a hole in the clouds I see?" Let's get driving!

Blue Skies and Sweet Dreams

[dreamsville 0]

On quick inspection, it looks like most places are OK. Try the USPA web site as things develop. Right now, the only suspensions are big sporting event venues for demo jumps, effective with code orange.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[falxori 0]

i doubt it will effect Dzs in the US.
here, where Iraq is a couple of hours away and the airforce is on alert, they might have to ground us if things get too wacky over there.

hope they wont have too

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[dreamsville 0]

Want to tell us more about your DZ?
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[falxori 0]

nothing much to tell, beside its in Israel.
although we are not a part of the war in Iraq, good old sadaam may target us with missiles (like he's done in 91) or an ari strike.

so naturally our airforce is on higher alert which means some civilians activities may be restricted.
none are restricted at the moment but it all depends on whether we'll be attacked or not...
hopefully, not

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Muenkel 0]

Ori,

Saddam wouldn't attack Israel, he got rid of all his missiles...remember? And besides, he's such a nice guy.

Be safe over there. Hopefully, we got your back.
Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[falxori 0]

actually i'm not so worried about a conventional attack.
a chemical/biological attack is another story.

i'm much more worried from a non conventional terror attack.
all it takes is a small container (or even an infected human host), and that can happen anywhere, everywhere and any time

and of course, i hope you'll get your boys and girls back safely...

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[billvon 2,400]

>i'm much more worried from a non conventional terror attack.
>all it takes is a small container (or even an infected human host),
>and that can happen anywhere, everywhere and any time

I wouldn't worry about it _too_ much. Hussein doesn't have the fusing to do airbursts, which means any threat from chemical weapons is greatly diminished - you'll end up with a 20 foot deep fiery hole in the ground full of sarin. You need good weather conditions and the right delivery system (like an aircraft) to kill large numbers of people. If you don't have that, chemical weapons just aren't that effective. As an example, a sarin attack on the Tokyo subway, one of the most crowded train systems in the world, killed only 12 people. (although it made a great many people sick.)

Biological weapons have proven to not be such a nightmare either, at least during the one US BW attack. Anthrax spread throughout the country in mailed letters; only 5 people died. Explosives are a lot more deadly.

Here's a pretty good article on the issue:

----------------------------

Subject: A Soldier's Viewpoint on Surviving Nuclear, Chemical and
Biological Attacks

A Soldier's Viewpoint on Surviving Nuclear, Chemical and
Biological Attacks
From: SFC Red Thomas (Ret) Armor Master Gunner Mesa, AZ

Since the media has decided to scare everyone with
predictions of
chemical, biological, or nuclear warfare on our turf I
decided to write a paper and
keep things in their proper perspective. I am a retired
military weapons, munitions, and training expert.

Lesson number one: In the mid 1990s there were a series of
nerve gas attacks on crowded Japanese subway stations.
Given perfect conditions for an attack less than 10% of the
people there were injured (the injured were better in a few
hours) and only one percent of the injured died.

60 Minutes once had a fellow telling us that one drop of
nerve gas could kill a thousand people, well he didn't tell
you the thousand dead people per drop was theoretical.

Drill Sergeants exaggerate how terrible this stuff was to
keep the recruits awake in class (I know this because I was
a Drill Sergeant too). Forget everything you've ever seen
on TV, in the movies, or read in a novel about this stuff,
it was all a lie (read this sentence again out loud!).
These weapons are about terror, if you remain calm, you
will probably not die. This is far less scary than the
media and their "Experts," make it sound.

Chemical Weapons
Chemical weapons are categorized as nerve, blood, blister,
and Incapacitating agents. Contrary to the hype of
reporters and politicians they are not weapons of mass
destruction they are "area denial," and terror weapons that
don't destroy anything. When you leave the area you almost
always leave the risk. That's the difference; you can leave
the area and the risk but soldiers may have to stay put and
sit through it and that's why they need all that spiffy
gear.

These are not gasses, they are vapors and/or air borne
particles. The agent must be delivered in sufficient
quantity to kill/injure, and that defines when/how it's
used. Every day we have a morning and evening inversion
where stuff," suspended in the air gets pushed down. This
inversion is why allergies (pollen) and air pollution are
worst at these times of the day.

So, a chemical attack will have it's best effect an hour or
so either side of sunrise/sunset. Also, being vapors and
airborne particles they are heavier than air so they will
seek low places like ditches, basements and underground
garages. This stuff won't work when it's freezing, it
doesn't last when it's hot, and wind spreads it too thin
too fast. They've got to get this stuff on you, or, get you
to inhale it for it to work. They also have to get the
concentration of chemicals high enough to kill or wound
you.

Too little and it's nothing, too much and it's wasted. What
I hope you've gathered by this point is that a chemical
weapons attack that kills a lot of people is incredibly
hard to do with military grade agents and equipment so you
can imagine how hard it will be for terrorists.

The more you know about this stuff the more you realize how
hard it is to use.
We'll start by talking about nerve agents. You have these
in your house, plain old bug killer (like Raid) is nerve
agent. All nerve agents work the same way; they are
cholinesterase inhibitors that mess up the signals your
nervous system uses to make your body function. It can harm
you if you get it on your skin but it works best if they
can get you to inhale it. If you don't die in the first
minute and you can leave the area you're probably gonna
live. The military's antidote for all nerve agents is
atropine and pralidoxime chloride. Neither one of these
does anything to cure the nerve agent, they send your body
into overdrive to keep you alive for five minutes after
that the agent is used up. Your best protection is fresh
air and staying calm.

Listed below are the symptoms for nerve agent poisoning:
Sudden headache, Dimness of vision (someone you're looking
at will have pinpointed pupils), runny nose, excessive
saliva or drooling, difficulty breathing, tightness in
chest, nausea, stomach cramps, twitching of exposed skin
where a liquid just got on you.
If you are in public and you start experiencing these
symptoms, first ask yourself, did anything out of the
ordinary just happen, a loud pop, did someone spray
something on the crowd? Are other people getting sick too?
Is there an odor of new mown hay, green corn, something
fruity, or camphor where it shouldn't be? If the answer is
yes, then calmly (if you panic you breathe faster and
inhale more air/poison) leave the area and head up wind,
or, outside. Fresh air is the best "right now antidote." If
you have a blob of liquid that looks like molasses or Kayro
syrup on you; blot it or scrape it off and away from
yourself with anything disposable. This stuff works based
on your body weight, what a crop duster uses to kill bugs
won't hurt you unless you stand there and breathe it in
real deep, then lick the residue off the ground for a
while. Remember they have to do all the work, they have to
get the concentration up and keep it up for several minutes
while all you have to do is quit getting it on you/quit
breathing it by putting space between you and the attack.

Blood agents are cyanide or arsine which effect your
blood's ability to provide oxygen to your tissue. The
scenario for attack would be the same as nerve agent. Look
for a pop or someone splashing/spraying something and folks
around there getting woozy/falling down. The telltale
smells are bitter almonds or garlic where it shouldn't be.
The symptoms are blue lips, blue under the fingernails
rapid breathing. The military's antidote is amyl nitride
and just like nerve agent antidote it just keeps your body
working for five minutes till the toxins are used up Fresh
air is the your best individual chance.

Blister agents (distilled mustard) are so nasty that nobody
wants to even handle it let alone use it. It's almost
impossible to handle safely and may have delayed effect of
up to 12 hours. The attack scenario is also limited to the
things you'd see from other chemicals. If you do get large,
painful blisters for no apparent reason, don't pop them, if
you must, don't let
the liquid from the blister get on any other area, the
stuff just keeps on spreading. It's just as likely to harm
the user as the target. Soap, water, sunshine, and fresh
air are this stuff's enemy.

Bottom line on chemical weapons (it's the same if they use
industrial chemical spills); they are intended to make you
panic, to terrorize you, to herd you like sheep to the
wolves. If there is an attack, leave the area and go
upwind, or to the sides of the wind stream. They have to
get the stuff to you, and on you. You're more likely to be
hurt by a drunk driver on any given day than be hurt by one
of these attacks. Your odds get better if you leave the
area. Soap, water, time, and fresh air really deal this
stuff a knock-out-punch. Don't let fear of an isolated
attack rule your life.
The odds are really on your side.


Biological Weapons
Finally there's biological warfare. There's not much to
cover here. Basic personal hygiene and sanitation will take
you further than a million
doctors Wash your hands often, don't share drinks, food,
sloppy kisses, etc., . with strangers. Keep your garbage
can with a tight lid on it, don't have standing water (like
old buckets, ditches, or kiddie pools) laying around to
allow mosquitoes breeding room. This stuff is carried by
vectors, that is bugs, rodents, and contaminated material.
If biological warfare is so easy as the TV makes it sound,
why has Saddam Hussein spent twenty years, millions, and
millions of dollars trying to get it right? If you're clean
of person and home you eat well and are active you're gonna
live.

Overall preparation for any terrorist attack is the same as
you'd take for a big storm. If you want a gas mask, fine,
go get one. I know this stuff and I'm not getting one and I
told my Mom not to bother with one either (how's that for
confidence). We have a week's worth of cash, several days
worth of canned goods and plenty of soap and water. We
don't leave stuff out to attract bugs or rodents so we
don't have them. These people can't conceive a nation this
big with this much resources. These weapons are made to
cause panic, terror, and to demoralize. If we
don't run around like sheep they won't use this stuff after
they find out it's no fun. The government is going nuts
over this stuff because they have to protect every inch of
America. You've only gotta protect yourself, and by doing
that, you help the country.

Finally, there are millions of caveats to everything I
wrote here and you can think up specific scenarios where my
advice isn't the best. This letter is supposed to help the
greatest number of people under the greatest number of
situations. If you don't like my work, don't nit pick, just
sit down and explain chemical, nuclear, and biological
warfare in a document around three pages long yourself.
This is how we the people of the United States can rob
these people of their most desired goal, your terror.

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

Hussein doesn't have the fusing to do airbursts

Where did you get this information? The technology of VT fuses is used in almost every artillery and mortar shell in the US and old USSR inventory. IOW, anything he bought from the US, USSR, French, German, or UK governments has the ability to do airbursts. It is used in conventional rounds to attack troops in the open ie no overhead cover. You set the fuse based on the target. VT = variable time.

Quote

SFC Red Thomas (Ret) Armor Master Gunner Mesa, AZ

A lot of what this guy says is true but he seems to underestimate the effects of being in the burst radius of a chemical round. Especially chemical agents that don't require you to inhale them. Once you get a persistant agent on your body you have to be deconned to get it off. You don't just walk out of it unless it is a non persistant agent. You don't really know the difference until you test for the chemical. I would look for articles from the US Army Chemical School in Fort McClellan Alabama. This guy is an Armor NCO not a Chemical NCO. His expertise is in tanks not chemical munitions.

They are not easy to use but I wouldn't brush the threat away too quickly.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[billvon 2,400]

>>Hussein doesn't have the fusing to do airbursts

>Where did you get this information?

Pollack's book. He arrives at this through several bits of information, one of which is that Hussein has never successfully used CW agents in his missiles, even when he was using chemical agents against the Iranians.

VT fusing is useful on mortar shells that have travel times of 15 sec, not so useful on IRBM's (i.e. weapons that could reach Israel.) Their travel times are so long that any fusing based simply on time would likely not be accurate enough.

From a 1999 RAND report on the issue:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Weaponization of chemical agents is relatively straightforward.*


* NOTE: An important exception is fusing. The dispersal of chemical (and biological) weapons is most efficient if the agent can be dispersed before it hits the ground. Achieving a reliable, optimal airburst is a technical challenge that few potential proliferants have
yet managed to achieve.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


>They are not easy to use but I wouldn't brush the threat away too quickly.

I agree; I didn't mean to brush it away. They are definitely a threat. Chemical weapons mounted on missiles, used against Israel, have a lot more potential as weapons of terror than as weapons of mass destruction, though they can still be deadly. Having a realistic view of the risks involved might help reduce their effectiveness as weapons of terror.

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

VT fusing is useful on mortar shells that have travel times of 15 sec, not so useful on IRBM's (i.e. weapons that could reach Israel.) Their travel times are so long that any fusing based simply on time would likely not be accurate enough.

That makes sense. I was thinking more of a terrorist attack with mortars. VT fuses are primative but very effective with mortar rounds.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

• Quote

[Poczynek 0]

Our Regional (local) DZ at Um, Al Qwain in UAE is shut down till further notice - as well as a civilian aviation - bummer. Good news is only 11 more days unitl I'm back in the good old US of A - if I can get a flight out.

Skydive Houston & SKydive Spaceland Here I come.
Cheers

phat, dumb & happy